Hello, Let me sum up to see whether I understand correctly: Do you mean the brown phase before the white phase? On sympto this is the rose pre ovulatory phase which has only 5 days during the first 12 cycles for effectiveness reasons. Clearly, during this first year (roughly) the women has to be very careful before ovulation. This is the learning phase. Then, according to the temperature rise pattern, it will be more, up to 9 or 10 days depending on her cycle. But she can then apply a double check and enter in the blue fertile phase if a) she feels dry and sees nothing or b) if she sees nothing and has a closed cervix. If she does not do this cross check or if she cannot confirm it, she has to stick to the Döring-day, which is calculated automatically by sympto according to the earliest past temperature rise. Perhaps you are referring to this Döring rule (8 days rule or whatever you name it). Is that right? So why is "seen nothing" not enough - as you presumably think ? Explanation: There are many many women whose cervical fluid starts quite late but their cervix is already open before, meaning: She would be fertile in the brown area and this is a risk for unwanted pregnancies. I did not invent that, this is what we see daily on our back-end. These results are clearly confirmed by studies that are a) much more recent as you can see on sympto.org, clinical studies, than your studies and b) that these studies are done with an overall population, not specially catholic. The problem with most of your studies is that they are done with strict Catholics who observe the abstinence and who are trained accordingly. For some it works quite well if there cervical fluid is visible early enough or if they feel moist early enough, but most woman do have these observations many days too late and then the have unwanted pregnancies. The symptothermal way gives them more information and justice, because nature is not always just. Do you have Billings studies that have an open - non Christian, non catholic - population that are really conclusive (less than 1 Pearl Index) and recent ? Can you explain me please the sentence: "Abstain on any days of change plus three returning to every other evening on dry days if PEAK is not ID'd." You mean that if after "days of change" (change of what? seeing cervical fluid? Coming and disappearing? ) there is not cervical fluid or moist or lubricant sensation any more, you are in the brown phase again without having (=identifying) a peak day? Can you explain me that? This is not clear to me : when the cervical fluid stops and is followed by dry days or days with progesterone like fluid (she can still have moist feeling but not lubricant feeling), there must be a Peak day! Am I wrong? As you can see in our Manual on http://www.sympto.org/manual_en.html , part 1, we have 4s option to generate PD. This means that there could be several PD per cycle, but only the last one is the "real one" if it is confirmed by the temperature rise. How do you define PD in the sense that you are sure that it was the ovulation phase? According to what I have learned and seen, you can never be quite sure that your PK day is the real one (unless you can tell me how you define it), therefore you need the temperature rise. This temperature rise is never related to a passed temperature rise. Every cycle has its own individual temperature rise according to the rules explained in our chapter 2 of the manual. The problem you seem to have is different and explained in our FAQ 6: How can you know that your bleeding is a real menstruation? Answer, only if you have an observed cycle before which shows that you have ovulated. Once this issue is settled, you have infertile rose days in the beginning of the cycle according a) to your pattern and b) according to your cross checks. If you have a intermenstrual bleeding, how can you know it with the Billings method? Answer you cannot: we have a breastfeeding program which runs exactly like yours, without temps, which does not distinguish between pre-ovulatory and post-ovulatory phases as it is the case with your brown phase. In theses circumstances, you are before ovulation anyway and the bleeding is interpreted as inter-menstrual. I really appreciate to learn some inside knowledge of the Billings method which I seem to misunderstand or to ignore. Many thanks for your clarifications! Best Harri Le 23.10.13 19:34, Kimberly Schnitker a écrit : so glad you wrote to clarify- I see I was not clear enough and perhaps I am not up to date with sympto practice I meant the part of the cycle post red period and pre-white period (not post Peak). With the Ovulation Method every other evening on dry days is open after the red period and before the white. Abstain on any days of change plus three returning to every other evening on dry days if PEAK is not ID'd.
If PEAK is ID'd then it's PEAK +3 (fourth morning on open until start of next red period- the luteal phase).What are the rules for that time of the cycle? Aren't they related to past cycles and calculations?Thanks for any assistance- I appreciate it!KCOn Oct 23, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Harri Wettstein wrote:Hi, Yes of course we are very familiar with the important work of Dr. Odeblad and also of his Spanish Doctors who continue his work!What do you mean by:"temperature method it imposes abstinence for postponing couples from a particular day- unrelated to the present cycle".This is not at all true of sympto!Thanks for your clarification!good evening
HarriLe 23.10.13 18:29, Kimberly Schnitker a écrit :
Hi Dr. Wettstein,Thanks so much for the note.Just a quick thought- the effectiveness studies on TOM include women who have been on the pill and came off to learn and use the Ovulation Method/Billings.It is just as effective for them as for any other women.Temperature, as you said, can be very helpful, but is not useful if a woman is sick , premenopausal or up nursing in the middle of the night.I’m not at all against temps, but the idea the the Ovulation Method/Billings is only really useful for the bush, kinda gnaws at me (not that you are implying that- others have though).I think the simplicity might make people wonder, but God in His simplicity and justice would not give us a method only for the rich when he loves the poor so very muchI do teach oodles of women coming off the pill- I teach the entire Southern Md area and see the charts of women on the pill since age 15 and getting married at 25 (they go off after my class generally- very exciting).Some of these women have wacky charts with no cervical mucus to speak of, but again, you can’t pregnant anyway without it.So even if they ovulate, if the secretion is not there… no conception possible. It’s the same with women in their mid and late 40′s.For myself, at 46, I sometimes see only two hours of mucus in a given cycle- still I am cycling every month, 27-32 days.I recently used TOM to get pregnant- but had a miscarriage (I’ve had two others in my reproductive life- we have 6 living children), so I am still ovulating.One of the things that is frustrating to me about the temp- is that it imposes abstinence for postponing couples from a particular day- unrelated to the present cycle.TOM is based on what is happening today and in the present cycle- no calculations.I helped a woman recently who told me that she was taught that based on her past cycles they had to abstain from day 6. Looking at her chart she did not actually enter her ‘white period’ until day 12.I think it would be helpful if we taught temp with the attitude of building confidence in mucus observations- so the women could confirm ovulation and then look back and say, ‘wow- that was in direct correlation to my ‘white period’!We have a new study for achieving that is thrilling too- 86%! The only thing the women were taught is TOM and some had to improve nutrition by taking vitamins. The couples were trying to conceive from 1-12 years.It was amazing to see the change in charts from the women whose nutrition was improved.Nutrition in the US is also abysmal and I have to do a lot of counseling with women that they need to eat fat to have healthy cycles and that ‘fats don’t make you fat’ (for goodness sake!!).Are you familiar with the work of Dr. Oldeblad?Thanks again for the note and I hope this letter is useful to you also.Kindest Regards,KC SchnitkerOn Oct 23, 2013, at 11:08 AM, Harri Wettstein wrote:Hello Kimberly,Thanks a lot for this information which I will study closely with Christine Bourgeois, Presidente of SymptoTherm Foundation.We think that Billings method is really the optimum for the woman. We also have a proper Billings program on sympto. However, when it comes to get off the pill, women have enormous difficulties in identifying PD, so the thermal shift helps them a lot and gives them more confidence in their body. The temperature parameter helps them to identify their PD after some cycles!So we think we should not argue "Billings is effective enough, we don’t need temperatures": this depends where you are: in our industrialized societies in Europe and Northern America, the symptothermal is a good standard, but of course in the bushes or poor countries, temperature takings are too demanding or just impossible.We also use Wilson’s beautiful book for our teachings.We also have lots of women who want to conceive: for them Billings is a good step into knowing their fertility problem. But again. Don’t forget, we are like St Paul going towards the heathen (and also many Catholics) and they all have between 10 – 20 years of pill….Le 23.10.13 15:42, Kimberly Schnitker a écrit :
Dear Dr. Wettstein,I am sorry it has taken me so long to respond. In the process of a big move.This method is very widely used- in over 100 countries and translated into Chinese, Korean, Spanish and more.I’d be happy to answer any questions- by phone is good too- numbers below.This method works well for all women regardless of age or situation.In order to conceive, we know three things are essential, sperm, egg and cervical mucus (I call this the ‘white period’).Any woman can identify her ‘red period’ easily by what she sees and feels- even if she only got it once a year it would not escape her notice.In the same way, women can identify their ‘white period’ (fertile time) by what she sees and feels.The key is for women to be taught to understand it’s significance and how to act around it to achieve or postpone pregnancy.Attached below is a chart with studies on this method. There are some more recent ones, but I have to get the information and then send to you.This is the simplest method, the easiest to learn and use and the most affordable.Mercedes Wilson’s book "Love and Fertility" is excellent. The book is written so that a woman could learn it herself from the book.It includes the chart with stickers and mucus stamps and a a CD-ROM to chart on the PC- has tutorials and a mini documentary about the development of the method.I hope all this helpful!KC SchnitkerP.S. Family of the Americas also has some studies on the divorce rate, satisfaction with family life, user satisfaction etc. if you are interested.Please let me know if this attachment doesn’t come throughP.S.S. See the study in the chart by Dr. Billings on the premenopause- a time that resembles what a woman coming off the pill after 10 years might experience.He had a result of 0% Method Related Pregnancies, 98 couples over 3-4 yearsOn Oct 15, 2013, at 10:14 AM, Harri Wettstein wrote:Hello
Yes I would be glad to have this list!
Why is this method not used widely if it is so effective?
Can you recommend it to the typical post-pill woman (about 10 years artificial hormones)?Many thanks-- Harri Wettstein, Dr en psy. Sécheron 8 – CH-1132 Lully VD phone +41 21 802 44 18 fax +41 21 802 37 35 skype: sympto.ch harri-wettstein.de www.symptotherm.ch, www.sympto.org & Symptos.ch
Le 15.10.13 15:20, firstname.lastname@example.org a écrit :There is an article published in the British Medical Journal- Sept 18, 1993 "Effective Birth Control Supported by the Catholic Church" (99.6% effective-The Ovulation Method).I can send you a whole list of other published studies on Billings and The Ovulation Method if you email me at info@FamilyNFP.com
WHO has one 1981- "Fertility Study" 36:591 (97.2%) Billings/OvulationPeople’s Republic of China Dr. Zhang "The Effectiveness of The Ovulation Method-Reproduction and Contraception" June 1993 13:3 pgs.194-200(98.9%)I hope these are helpful.KC—In email@example.com, <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:I would love to hear more about exactly what your research is. Is this something you are wanting to publish?
There are a number of studies that have great effectiveness, maybe you would like to start with this one since it has multiple references? http://www.osteopathicfamilyphysician.org/article/S1877-573X%2812%2900154-2/fulltext
The problem with effectiveness is that they generally group together all of the fertility awareness based methods instead of separating them. For that reason, I do like the Guttmacher Institute effectiveness, but for typical use they bunch them together and only separate for perfect use. Image here: http://i1.wp.com/holistichormonalhealth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/first-year-contra.jpgHannah Ransom
Holistic Hormonal Health
http://holistichormonalhealth.comOn Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Bertotti Metoyer, Andrea M <bertottimetoyer@…> wrote:Hello,I am starting a research project that will examine the portrayal of NFP effectiveness (or lack thereof) in medical textbooks. Several of the texts suggest that “typical use” pregnancy rates are 25% for “periodic abstinence”. “Perfect use” ranges from 1-9%.
I have two questions for the group:
1) Do you have any information about the studies from which such numbers are derived?2) Do you have any suggestions for high quality, peer-reviewed publications that demonstrate greater effectiveness for any NFP methods?