A very hot discussion on the nfpprofessionals forum in the states

Many thanks for this encouragement:

I just want to add that the learning process is intrinsically such that it will immediately reveal the ethical problems of the woman and the couple. It is not demanding for a +- healthy woman, in a stable relationship with an supporting husband and good communication about sexuality. Once this is settled, the way for the Catholic abstinence is not far. It reveals itself. « Naturally ». But most women downloading sympto are not even trying, the are under the pill on Clue (yes, they are on one of these fake Apps!) which tell them that if they « observe today », the « will increase the prediction of their ovulation » and such blatant nonsense. Most women under pill still think that they have ordinary ovulations, that they are still women… But most women are not +- healthy, they discontinue the hormones and they might have chaotic cycles in the beginning. Fortunately we have more and more French women under 25 years, but some of them had already 10 years with hormones… That’s where the gentiles wait for us!
Excellent WE
Harri

Le 19.12.14 02:07, rbamer2 rbamer2@yahoo.com [nfpprofessionals] a écrit :
> Dear Harri,
> I appreciate your comments and obvious passion for symptothermal and your app.
>
> I think the reason why the Church seems often to be leading from behind (charitable) or not leading the NFP movement at all (less charitable), is because of their promotion of rhythm in the past (I.e.rhythm clinics) and the anecdotal experiences of parishioners that it was not effective in avoiding pregnancy. At least this is what I have read and heard. Perhaps one of the older members could give a more detailed explanation of why this is so.
>
> I do share your frustration with the Church’s reluctance in helping with this. In my Diocese, we have no support for NFP at all. We do it on our own with committed docs, nurses, and NFP teachers, and a handful of Priests.
>
>

This is my answer to Juan Velez:

I completely agree to this statement, you express my point of view better than I am able to do:
When Saint Paul went to the gentiles/heathen, he appealed also to these ethical points you mention.

There is an astonishing parallel in history: the Apostles from Jerusalem did not like Paul to preach the gospel outside the Jewish culture, to men who were not circumcised. Dominic gives me sometimes the impression that NFP is only for righteous Catholics who never ever take a condom and never ever take the pill. Taking the condom occasionally (no men likes it) during the fertile phase becomes like being accused not to be circumcised!

This is unfortunately the main reason why NFP isn’t even known correctly by Catholics. They are not properly informed and they judge you « Don’t tell me that, I know it does not work! » There are other reasons such as you are not having modern tools like performant apps: I am looking forward to the new person working with FACTS to going ahead with the FACT’s app comparison study. I hope she will appreciate the study we made:

http://www.sympto.org/etude2014_en.html

I am just a poor Swiss protestant (Zwingli, not Calvin) and I know it is even much more difficult to promote NFP among Evangelicals and Protestants. It is even hopeless as long as the Catholics don’t wake up. Some day they will. They must lead us. Never forget: The Catholics are the only spiritual movement in the world and in history who were really interested in womanhood. So why doesn’t the pontifical council in Rome promote NFP by rating the methods properly? Only 1 specialist would be needed!

Harri

Le 18.12.14 21:11, Juan Velez jrvg98@gmail.com [nfpprofessionals] a écrit :
> I have not followed in detail all the thread, but with regards to one aspect I would like to point out that an ethical and anthropological (philosophical) is not a morality card and that it is a necessary foundation for scientific arguments. We are more than organs and hormones. Even when addressing non-religious persons we can and should appeal to some basic philosophical concepts – sometimes very briefly- such as the dignity of each person, the unity of body and soul, the intimate connection between conjugal love and procreation, the child as a great gift, etc. Otherwise we are building on a poor foundation. And little by little we being to think ourselves or teach others that this is what we are.
>
> By doing this we have a sort of schizophrenia, science on one side, and ethics on another. Philosophy of man is an important foundation for every human science.
>
> This is not an argument in favor of using doctrinal or biblical statements although these should be used with a Christian audience.
>
> Fr. Juan
>
> On Dec 17, 2014, at 8:46 PM, « ‘Jean Tevald’ jeantev@embarqmail.com [nfpprofessionals] » wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I agree- the science and exposing the harms of hormonal contraceptives have been at least received with respect if not agreement. I almost never pull the “morality” card- haven’t had to. I have many NaPro patients who are not even religious and they appreciate the science.
>>

>> Jean Golden-Tevald, DO
>>
>>

Dominic
You are so right in everything you say but your are putting the horse before the cart.
As long as they think that NFP is not efficient at all and too complicated to learn, they cannot hear you.
So you must show them convincing alternatives, with a pastoral approach not with a moralising approach that they are not ready to hear.

At the contraception congress 2014 in Lisbon, an American woman, who wants to save humanity

blithed@mail.nih.gov
Address:
6100 EXECUTIVE BLVD Room 8B13, MSC 7510
Bethesda Md 20892-7510
For FedEx use:
Rockville Md 20852

« proved » that the so called « natural methods » are more « polluting » than the chemical ones. Do you know why? She took for granted that all the NFP methods are very unreliable because producing too many children, which are a cause of pollution: every contraceptive failure is a factor of pollution!

So if she just ignores that she is wrong, because she does not know NFP correctly, you have to convince her with the effectiveness of the methods. Prof. Freundl told her exactly that on the congress, and she replied him in the plenum, without hesitation, « you in Germany can have effective NFP because you are more disciplined ». In other words, NFP is reliable and effective only in Germany! How can people say such stupidities?

And these are the kind of people that rule the public health in your country! They think the will save humanity by getting rid of all these polluting NFP, that’s their moral law.

Best
harri

Marguerite,

Thanks for all these thoughts! I would add this:

Instead of saying, « I cannot do this because I am Catholic », why not just saying: I present you the best contraceptive alternative (I think you should use this word « contraception » even if it is not theologically correct, but this is something people don’t understand): 1) this method takes you out of your body illiteracy, 2) you know where you are in your cycle, 3) you really feel as a woman, 4) has no damaging side effects on your body, 5) is ecological and 6) sustainable, 7) fosters couple relationship, 8) implies also the man, 9) it is a shared « contraception », 10) it is effective as the pill, 11) it is easier to learn than to make the driving licence, 12) it is cheaper than the driving licence, etc. etc. : these are all arguments that fit into Catholic thought, so why not replacing the word Catholic by the most appropriate list of positive aspects which, in addition, can also be shared by non Catholics and atheists? Why not giving people the good arguments for their choice? This way you might convince a lot of Catholics, the majority, to discontinue the hormones… This is the main problem!

For all women, point 5) is vital. If you tell them about the clinical studies, they laugh at you. They just repeat what women’s journals and MDs tell them: « NFP is complicated and not effective ». You have to show them a convincing system. That’s an other story! We try to help them to choose an app by our study of 2013 / 2014 (which is accessible fore anyone) but the media (and you too!) do not seem to take any interest. Why?

We tell them that we can guarantee natural contraception when the woman has been followed by a counselor during 6 months. We have specific reasons for doing this and we are confident about it. (We also know that the more the couple has found confidence, the more it takes risks for an unplanned pregnancy, is open to new live – this theological talk about « contraceptive attitude » is refuted by the facts.) But when we speak of guarantee, women just don’t realize what that means. There is something going on in the mind of women I still do not understand: they ask for effectiveness, you give them a guarantee and they say nothing any more! Just nothing! We are looking forward to seeing some medical body or public health to sue us, but the don’t. That’s the funny story. We are provocative but they continue to ignore us.

All these fake apps who overfill the AppStores seduce women but of course without giving any guarantees. Still they prefer « predicting » apps because of their body illiteracy, than serious tools. Do you see the problem?

I very much appreciate the work of FACTS which is much ahead of what we are doing here in Europe! Freundl thought that MD would read his studies. But they don’t. Your approach is much better.

I hope to get some feedback on this issue
Best regards
Harri

>>
>> From: nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 10:46 AM
>> To: ‘nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com’
>> Subject: RE: [nfpprofessionals] Should doctors have the right to refuse to treat a patient?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Wow. Well said, Marguerite. Your paragraph 2, “Why? Well…” has been my experience as well. I was given great advice years ago that, when discussing with physicians and nurses, the science alone speaks volumes. God and Jesus and the Church are important, but to non-Catholics and to Catholics who use BCPs, the science is the more compelling argument. NFP is good medicine.
>>
>>
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>>
>> From: nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 2:43 AM
>> To: nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [nfpprofessionals] Should doctors have the right to refuse to treat a patient?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dominic,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have been following this thread with interest and had hoped to reply earlier to address a number of your points:
>>
>> 1. Do you think we Catholic doctors have articulated our position … in a way that overemphasizes reasons deriving from religion (« I am catholic and so I can’t offer this ») and too little emphasizes reasons centering on the difference between doing harm and doing good, between toxic and therapeutic, etc.?
>>
>>
>>
>> I cannot say with certainty, but I think many cite their Catholic faith as the reason they do not offer contraception, because as Nancy stated, it is the easier way out. I agree it takes more time to explain that birth control does not treat a disease and actually increases risk of harm. For example, a year ago, when I was interviewed about NFP, I was asked if I prescribed hormonal birth control – a seemingly YES or NO question. HOwever, I gave a detailed response highlighting all the negatives of birth control and I am happy to share the email with the list-serve if it would help others in making the case for doing no harm. I think it is important that this (the science supporting the benefits of NFP and the harms of birth control) be the focus of our argument if we ever want to convince the majority of our colleagues and patients to consider using natural or fertility awareness based methods of family planning.
>>
>>
>>
>> Why? Well, the majority or our colleagues and patients are likely not Catholic and if we say that is the reason we do not prescribe, they will not identify with that line of reasoning and are much less likely to support and/or join us in not prescribing birth control to prevent pregnancy. Additionally, for our colleagues who are Catholic and do prescribe birth control, it may be even harder to bring them to our side if we emphasize the faith as opposed to the facts, because in a way we are confronting them with their sinful behavior. Since these Catholics may want to believe they are good Catholics, it may be much harder for them to acknowledge that prescribing birth control violates the teachings of the faith, especially if we keep hitting them head on.with it. Personally, since my conversion to being NFP only, I have felt called to change people’s mind about NFP or FABMs based on the best science and I must trust that the Holy Spirit will change their hearts
>>
>>
>>
>> 2. Do we speak a common philosophical understanding of medical professional aims and goals, so that what we contribute would not so much depend on a person’s chosen religion, rather than on a correct understanding of what the proper and authentic goals of medicine are?
>>
>> Believe it or not there are many people who are interested in learning about these methods from a health perspective, because they want to « do no harm » but they feel turned off by how many of the methods are taught in the context of the church’s teaching on sexuality. I believe it we could focus more on how NFP / FABMs are consistent with natural law and good for one’s health and monitoring / managing some medical issues, we would see more interest and support of our efforts to integrate NFP into our practice.
>>
>>
>>
>> 3. I agree giving birth control is bad medicine, so we really have to focus on highlighting how FABMs support health and help people understand that birth control can seriously harm health. FACTS has taking the approach of focusing on the effectiveness and positive benefits of using FABMs; whereas other groups such as Natural Womanhood makes mores of an effort to highlight how birth control is harmful.
>>
>>
>>
>> 4. a new natural family planning specialty where « contraceptology » clinics would exist
>>
>> I am not convinced that we need a new specialty, but it would help if NFP health care professionals could be better connected, which I believe is part of the goal of the IIRRM (connecting folks in the research arena) and FACTS which primarily operates in the academic arena as we seek to educate physician and health care professionals about all evidence based methods of NFP. I believe the work of both groups is important, IIRRM to develop the evidence base for these methods and FACTS to disseminate this information so health care colleagues learn about these methods and their applications, and can then go out and use it in practice.
>>
>> What you envision « a type of family planning specialty, eclectic in welcoming all methods, and community based/clinical » is really the next step and I believe is already begging to take shape. Currently, I am aware of at least 2 organizations that are seeking to develop health centers that integrate education about NFP / FABMS into their models. The Guiding Star Project aims to create holistic health centers that support the health care needs of women, children and families, including primary care, birthing center, breastfeeding support and NFP education. TO date, I believe they have 2 centers open – 1 in Minnesota and 1 in Texas. The other group, FEMM – Fertility Education and Medical Management, seeks to do exactly what you suggest – create a chain of « anti-Sangar » family planning clinics that seeks to educate women about their fertility, how to monitor it and work with trained clinicians to manage health problems. They have at least 1 clinic in Ohio
>>
>>
>>
>> As you all see, there is lots happening, but the problem is many of us are working in our own silos so we may not be aware of all of these efforts. Therefore, I think it is critical that we have a meeting of the minds so to speak, so we can begin to work together more effectively. I know planning for such a meeting is already in the works, so stay tuned.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Marguerite Duane, MD, MHA, FAAFP
>>
>> Co-Founder and Executive Team Leader of FACTS
>>
>> Fertility Appreciation Collaborative to Teach the Systems
>>
>> http://www.FACTSaboutFertility.org
>>
>> MDuaneMD@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 16, 2014, at 7:35 PM, Dominic pedullad@aol.com [nfpprofessionals] wrote:
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>>
>>
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>> Wouldn’t it be cheeky to present the new specialty as a « new approach to birth control », thereby high jacking for ourselves a term admittedly a bit sketchy for people on our side, yet absolutely we understood in secular society, thus attracting all the pregnancy avoiders to our side to the extent we can?
>>
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh
>>
>> Cell: 405-834-7506
>> Off: 405-947-2228
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 16, 2014, at 5:38 PM, « ‘Sheila St. John’ sheila@canfp.org [nfpprofessionals] » wrote:
>>
>> There is a slide on that page that has a CrM chart, and another that shows three method examples, and on that home page an article about Marquette Model etc. Webinars are offered, and have been offered on topics on variety of topics/methods. I would say it is sort of self selection—-the people who join bring with them their interest and experience in their particular method, and those who offer webinars have the opportunity to share their research or their clinical insights and experience, in whatever method they are implementing. Thus the term Restorative Reproductive Medicine, a broad term that is meant to encompass a way of practicing medicine, a new specialty, not method specific. Is absolutely the goal, to cross all those lines….key will be participation by physicians bringing varied experience.method/perspective, but all under the same philosophy of restoring normal function, not suppressing it. There will be many different approaches to do that, but while they vary in technique, they will be united in philosophy and ethics.
>>
>> Sheila St. John
>> Executive Director
>> California Association of Natural Family Planning
>> canfp.org
>> 1-877-33-CANFP
>> From: nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Dominic pedullad@aol.com [nfpprofessionals]
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 2:30 PM
>> To: nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [nfpprofessionals] Fwd: Re: Should doctors have the right to refuse to treat a patient?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you Sheila! As I opened the link I saw what looked like a Creighton chart as the very first image, unless I’m wrong. Does the Institute make liberal use of all methods?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh
>>
>> Cell: 405-834-7506
>> Off: 405-947-2228
>>
>> On Dec 16, 2014, at 4:18 PM, « ‘Sheila St. John’ sheila@canfp.org [nfpprofessionals] » wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ​I am not sure what you mean….. You can peruse the website at http://www.restorative-reproductive-medicine.com
>>
>>
>> Sheila St. John
>> Executive Director
>> California Association of Natural Family Planning
>> canfp.org
>> 1-877-33-CANFP
>> From: nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com on behalf of pedullad@aol.com [nfpprofessionals]
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 2:12 PM
>> To: nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [nfpprofessionals] Fwd: Re: Should doctors have the right to refuse to treat a patient?
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes but I’d like to hear more. What does it teach about women currently on contraception?
>>
>> Sincerely yours,
>>
>> Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh
>> Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher
>> Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@drpedulla.com)
>>
>> 405-947-2228 (office)
>> 405-834-7506 (cell)
>> 405-947-2307 (FAX)
>> pedullad@aol.com
>>
>> No Rerum Novarum without Humanae Vitae!!
>>
>>
>> —–Original Message—–
>> From: ‘Sheila St. John’ sheila@canfp.org [nfpprofessionals]
>> To: nfpprofessionals
>> Sent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 1:37 pm
>> Subject: Re: [nfpprofessionals] Fwd: Re: Should doctors have the right to refuse to treat a patient?
>>
>>
>> Dominic, are you familiar with the vision of the International Institute for Restorative Reproductive Medicine? Very integral to their mission is identifying Restorative Reproductive Medicine as just that, a specialty in medicine, as well as a perspective on diagnosis and treatment….
>>
>> Members are from various medical specialties, and also from various NFP methodologies….
>>
>> Sheila St. John
>>
>> From: nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Dominic pedullad@aol.com [nfpprofessionals]
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 11:08 AM
>> To: nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [nfpprofessionals] Fwd: Re: Should doctors have the right to refuse to treat a patient?
>>
>>
>>
>> I often thought of a new specialty, where one wouldn’t have to be an OB/GYN but could be FP, IM, endocrine, etc., but it would be a new natural family planning specialty where « contraceptology » clinics would exist. Every woman on a contraceptive would be properly diagnosed and treated if course, but the unique focus of these clinics, which made them different, was the priority of engineering the transformation from contraception to NFP. Behavioral health specialists would be part of the team, and it would in its philosophy borrow from all the major behavior change insights, even 12 step programs.
>>
>> ALL THE MAJOR NFP programs would contribute, from medical to non-medical, low-tech to high-tech.
>>
>> OB/GYNs would probably preside, but also be part of a true and powerful team. I even think these centers would fulfill what Saint JPII called for in the vadamecum for confessors – centers for responsible procreation in every diocese.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh
>>
>> Cell: 405-834-7506
>> Off: 405-947-2228
>>
>> On Dec 15, 2014, at 8:23 PM, « Mary Davenport mdavmd@yahoo.com [nfpprofessionals] » wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, this list would just be a list of obgyns.
>> That was what was suggested and what I told the County I would do, although I never really had to do it.
>> This was 15 years ago, so I am a bit out of touch with it.
>> Sure, I would be happy to talk to you.
>> Mary D
>> 510 417 5445 cell
>> Wednesday is best. I am in the Pacific time zone.
>>
>> From: « pedullad@aol.com [nfpprofessionals] »
>> To: nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 3:42 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfpprofessionals] Fwd: Re: Should doctors have the right to refuse to treat a patient?
>>
>>
>> But Mary the key thing you’ve said is the list of physicians you would provide would be a list of all OB/GYNs, right, and not just those that provide contraceptives. There’s nothing wrong with that! That would be just fine because you’re not giving them a list that essentially steers them towards contraceptive providers right? Or do I have this wrong? Because if it’s just making a list of all the docs, there is nothing wrong with that. Or is it just the ones that give contraceptives that were on the list? That, if it’s the case, would amount to a contraceptive referral right, but that wasn’t the arrangement right?
>>
>> Hey would it be possible to talk by phone?
>>
>> 405-359-2872 — home right now.
>>
>> Sincerely yours,
>>
>> Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh
>> Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher
>> Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@drpedulla.com)
>>
>> 405-947-2228 (office)
>> 405-834-7506 (cell)
>> 405-947-2307 (FAX)
>> pedullad@aol.com
>>
>> No Rerum Novarum without Humanae Vitae!!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> —–Original Message—–
>> From: Mary Davenport mdavmd@yahoo.com [nfpprofessionals]
>> To: nfpprofessionals
>> Sent: Mon, Dec 15, 2014 3:05 pm
>> Subject: Re: [nfpprofessionals] Fwd: Re: Should doctors have the right to refuse to treat a patient?
>>
>>
>> I think the idea with the list of all providers (or all hospitals) in the 1990’s was to do the minimum necessary, and avoid involvement in finding the doctor to prescribe, in this case, emergency contraception. (from the Cardinal O’Connor)
>> Finding the doctor would be the women’s responsibility.
>> But the Catholic doctor had to give honest information that emergency contraception existed and that there would be doctors that provided it. (from the authorities) and many ethicists including Catholic ones)
>> And not be seen as impeding the patient in getting the care she wanted, (also from the authorities – this may have been my authorities, not those in NYC)
>> Of course most women would know this already.
>> I am somewhat conflating my conversations with the county authorities with the Cardinal O’Connor situation.
>> In obgyn another dilemma we run into is prenatal testing.
>> It is the standard of care to ask women if they want testing, and describe it if they do.
>> And some Catholic women do, especially non invasive varieties.
>> In Catholic ethics the testing itself is permissible if it is not used to facilitate abortion.
>> Some pro-life perinatologists feel very strongly they should be involved in testing, and that they save many babies’ lives.
>> Whereas there are a handful of obgyns who never offer testing (or initiate a discussion) because they believe it is too much cooperation with an evil system.
>> In my state (California) offering testing is the law, not merely standard of care, and we have a state sponsored Down syndrome screening program.
>> If you do not at least describe testing and help a woman get testing, and she has a baby with an anomaly, and claims she would have aborted the baby, you as her doctor pay for for lifetime care.
>> Our profession is a minefield.
>> It requires a very clear idea of what is your responsibility as a physician, and what is the patient’s own responsibility.
>> Our patient has her own free will and autonomy.
>> I do not claim what many of us do is perfect.
>> Mary D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: « pedullad@aol.com [nfpprofessionals] »
>> To: nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 6:54 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfpprofessionals] Fwd: Re: Should doctors have the right to refuse to treat a patient?
>>
>>
>> And if also you could speak to this specifically: did Cardinal O’Connor’s approach require the doctor to help the patient find a contraception provider? Was that what was meant by making a list? In other words, if you insist on going to find a contraception provider to get contraception, here are the doctors who will do it? Is that what is meant by making list?
>>
>> Sincerely yours,
>>
>> Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh
>> Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher
>> Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@drpedulla.com)
>>
>> 405-947-2228 (office)
>> 405-834-7506 (cell)
>> 405-947-2307 (FAX)
>> pedullad@aol.com
>>
>> No Rerum Novarum without Humanae Vitae!!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> —–Original Message—–
>> From: Mary Davenport mdavmd@yahoo.com [nfpprofessionals]
>> To: nfpprofessionals
>> Sent: Sun, Dec 14, 2014 10:33 pm
>> Subject: Re: [nfpprofessionals] Fwd: Re: Should doctors have the right to refuse to treat a patient?
>>
>>
>> Well, Dominic, some of us feel called to be obgyn’s rather than specialties such as yours. And some of our best bishops disagree with you about where we draw the line and what to get martyred over. And what to do in this situation.
>> And yes, it is messier in medical specialties in which we confront moral dilemmas on a daily basis. And deal with the general public rather than preselected groups of orthodox Catholics.
>> And we attempt to be faithful Catholic physicians.
>> I think Cardinal O’Connor is right and you are wrong.
>> No, I do think the bishops would recommend making a list of suicide doctors. But what was offered was not a list of abortionists or contraceptors. Or even those providing emergency contraception, the issue at hand.
>> It was a list of all the obgyns providers in the area.
>> There may be a time when it is impossible to be a Catholic in ObGyn in the USA but it is not quite yet, although it may be getting closer.
>> I was offering a practical suggestion for this physician.
>> What us your suggestion to the doctor?
>> Quit medicine?
>> Go into a non primary care field?
>> Move out of Canada?
>> Mary D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 14, 2014, at 1:31 PM, Dominic pedullad@aol.com [nfpprofessionals] wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mary you are being kind, and mercy is appreciated, and who can deny the situation is brutal. Yet, there can be no exceptions to the rule of not referring for immoral « care ». This isn’t being legalistic, just faithful. If what is being provided is the wherewithal to get the things we won’t give, then the meaning of this is only too clear to the patient and doctor. Would any bishop be willing to authorize his doctors to provide lists of doctors willing to help with suicide? Suppose what was being asked for was hemlock instead of contraception? Or abortion? How would the doctor look that fetus in the eye on judgment day.
>>
>> No, I can’t believe there is any way around this. What we need, Mary, are saints willing to devote their lives to this, and to be willing to be martyrs to the cause. Without that, we’re losing so much ground that it will be less and less good we will be able to do.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh
>>
>> Cell: 405-834-7506
>> Off: 405-947-2228
>>
>> On Dec 14, 2014, at 1:20 PM, « Mary Davenport mdavmd@yahoo.com [nfpprofessionals] » wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Of course doctors have the right to refuse to treat a patient, especially if they do not provide a certain service.
>> Doctors have the right to determine their scope of practice.
>> This is not the first time such a thing has happened.
>> There have been many similar regulations in many places for at least a couple decades.
>> They are not enforced very well because contraception is typically easily available from just about any obgyn provider.
>> The situation is exacerbated in the case of « emergency contraception. » There is an ethical distinction between elective and emergency services.
>> The late Cardinal O’Connor gave the following advice to professionals in the thick of this: he considered this type of regulation coercion, so it mitigated some of the actions to follow the law that might be involved in participating in the medical system.
>> He distinguished between giving a direct referral (like arranging an appointment) and something like providing a list of the available providers in the area (or network).
>> That is what was some physicians have done who have been in this situation in the past.
>> There are obgyns that work in larger medical systems and Universities.
>> What is possible for someone in a solo self-owned practice may be different from a University practice.
>> Some of our best Catholic physicians in obgyn have been in some of the worst obgyn departments in the USA where they dined daily with architects of abortion methods every day.
>> We all have to draw our bottom line of how this works out with the help of our own spiritual advisers.
>> Just yesterday I got a letter from a young woman drummed out of her first year of obgyn residency.
>> Most of our Catholic medical students are going into fields such a as ophthalmology or radiology so they do not have to confront these daily dilemmas. This has been going on for at least 20 years.
>> So in many areas of the USA we have an extreme shortage of Catholic medical providers in primary care and obgyn.
>> We have to find a way to live within a system hostile to us. And preserve and build up Catholic institutions where possible.
>> My advice for Rene is ask your bishop or spiritual adviser about what to do about this. If you do not provide a service in your clinic, you give your clients a list of all the obgyns and primary care docs in the area. Many spiritual advisers who have dealt with many people before you have regarded this is a neutral act, especially if you are under coercion and if there is no other way out of it.
>> If we are too legalistic about this, we will have no Catholic primary care providers or obgyns left, especially in secular institutions. That is what seems to be happening.
>> In the mean time, we would hope your bishops in Canada would be fighting tooth and nail for their Catholic medical providers and institutions, and to help with a robust right of conscience law.
>> I would encourage you to talk to other Catholic physicians in primary care who actually deal with this situation.
>> Not every work environment may be suitable for you.
>> We need much better strategies to preserve Catholic medical care.
>> Two of the biggest Catholic hospitals in the SF Bay area, started a century or more ago, have been sold to secular for-profits and will be out of business 12/31/14.
>> My own opinion is that we desperately need Catholic physician groups in obgyn and primary care all over the USA, and they need help to get started.
>> Cardinal Dolan and the Knights of Malta just had a big benefit in New York for the development of Catholic physician groups, and this is the way forward.
>> Mary D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: « rbamer2 rbamer2@yahoo.com [nfpprofessionals] »
>> To: nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 6:06 AM
>> Subject: [nfpprofessionals] Fwd: Re: Should doctors have the right to refuse to treat a patient?
>>
>>
>> Dear all, please see the following from one of the Canadian docs who refused to prescribe contraception. Now a new rule forces them to refer to a contraception prescribing Dr or pay a fine. This would represent cooperating with evil, would it not? Does anyone have advice for Rene?
>>
>>
>> Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S® 5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>>
>>
>> ——– Original message ——–
>> From: Rene Leiva
>> Date:12/13/2014 8:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
>> To: Rebecca Bame
>> Subject: Re: Should doctors have the right to refuse to treat a patient?
>>
>>
>> Dear Rebecca,
>>
>> I thought I was never going to do this and I am still praying very hard it is not going to happen. However, as a father and protector of my family, I was wondering if you have any idea of Catholic groups of family physicians across the USA who would be interested in a Canadian…just in case:
>> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/ontario-doctors-who-deny-abortion-birth-control-must-refer-patients/article22035376/
>>
>> We are going to fight this but please keep us in your prayers
>>
>> Rene
>> Ottawa
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> __._,_.___
> Posted by: Juan Velez
> Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (44)
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When abstinence becomes a problem and leads to exotic, even absurd solutions

Hi Many thanks for all of your explanations that help me better understand your situation. You husband is definitely not Catholic as the Church speaks about responsible parenthood and abstinence as a specially precious discipline which invigorates the libido! If you think you don’t have the money for enhancing your relationship and sexuality, it is your choice. I regret this choice. Best regards Harri Wettstein PhD Secretary of SymptoTherm Foundation +41 21 802 44 18 1132 Lully (VD) – SWITZERLAND

Question 2014-12-17 00:04:15 Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. First of all, I want to thank you for this nice program that your team has put together. Very convenient. I am very supportive of the idea of equality of sexes, and I believe 100% that a woman has to know her body and her cycle to greatly empower herself. In my opinion, abstinence during ovulation would be ideal. However, and I feel I must share this information with you to put some light on my case, I have a partner and husband who is absolutely against birth control of any kind for religious reasons, will NOT use any protection and believes that a spouse should fulfill her spouses’ sexual needs when the desire arises (and vice versa – the man should listen to the woman sexual desires); which means, trying to practice abstinence during my ovulation period would mean having to say ‘no’ during that time, and he would take if very offensively, especially if he knew I was doing this to prevent pregnancy (I don’t want anymore children, he wants many more…:/). I have never taken birth control pills and I tend to lead a relatively « natural » life. I avoid chemicals as much as possible, and I have taken antibiotics 3 times in my life. I use herbs to treat myself, and they are very effective when one knows how to use them, when to pick harvest them properly etc. One cup of herbal tea is not a remedy! Anyway, my point is that I’m trying to find a natural contraceptive, and that is why I am experimenting with this herb. You could be right that it may be interfering with my normal cycle. I would have to experiment with it for a least another 2 cycles and see if it’s causing my excessive elixir discharge. Or it could be something else… The beginning of the cycle was my first period in almost 2 years (pregnancy following by full time breastfeeding), and it was very very short compared to my normal cycle from my memory… I also think that my thermometer needs a new battery because it never shows the same temperature in a 1 minute interval! So I think that has also falsified and jeorpardize the temperature record. I would love to have a personal counselor. Unfortunately I really really do not have the funds for it at this time. Thank you again for your support, L

Réponse 2014-12-16 18:50:52 Hello Thanks for your comments! Our herbalists tell me the following. 1. you have to know the fertile and infertile phase properly. We seem to agree to that. 2. you protect yourself during the fertile phase. This protection can be done by herbs but we do not recommend it because we think that the man should either abstain or protect himself, it is a matter of equality of sexes. Or do something different to show his love. As you can see on your chart, the herbs seemed to jeopardize the ovulation and your body tries to have another one! We don’t think that’s very elegant. All I recommend is to be followed by a professional counselor of sympto. Please read our legal reminder again: who can you guarantee natural contraception, I mean natural? Best regards Harri Wettstein PhD Secretary of SymptoTherm Foundation +41 21 802 44 18 1132 Lully (VD) – SWITZERLAND
Réponse 2014-12-10 11:50:31 Hello I would like to attribute you one of your counselors who would appreciate the discussion with you, but since you are not client, I cannot answer you. The big problem with all these « respected female » herbalists is that they don’t have a clue of how the female cycle works. I will pass this info to our specialist who will give you a feedback if you become premium member of sympto. Instead of paying (for me) useless herbs, I recommend you to invest in your proper cycle observation. Thank’s for your understanding. Best Harri Wettstein PhD Secretary of SymptoTherm Foundation +41 21 802 44 18 1132 Lully (VD) – SWITZERLAND

Question 2014-12-09 18:49:01 Hello, I wanted to inform you about my notes about daucus carota. I’m experimenting with this herb as a form of contraception as it has been used by some traditional people and highly spoken of by several respected contemporary female herbalist. The herb is said to prevent implantation of fertilized egg by rendering the walls of the uterus too slippery. Here’s a link to a very in depth study of this method: http://robinrosebennett.com/wild-carrot-daucus-carota-a-plant-for-conscious-natural-contraception/ So I’m trying it out! In the meantime it has been challenging to remember to take my temperature right upon waking. Do you have suggestion to help with that? And is it better/ more accurate to take vaginal/ rectal temperature instead of oral? Thank you!

Réponse 2014-12-03 17:07:24 Hello great, your bf! No definitely not staying in this program and please resume temperature takings. I switched it off. You will definitely have an ovulation in some days, but nobody can « predict » (except all these predicting fake apps around which confuse women). Could you please leave a nice message on the iPad store? Best regards Harri Wettstein PhD Secretary of SymptoTherm Foundation +41 21 802 44 18 1132 Lully (VD) – SWITZERLAND
Question 2014-12-03 02:19:28 Hello! My question is: I just started, I believe, my first period since my last pregnancy. Almost two years! My son is one year and 2 months and still regularly nursing but also eating other foods. 10 days ago I had blood for the first time sine my last period before being pregnant with him. Do I stay in breastfeeding mode or go to regular sympto?

Réponse 2014-12-02 09:19:13 Hello I switched on your 30 Premium days. Congratulations for your breastfeeding. Now you have to study the chapter about bf in our Complete symptothermal guide. If you bf exclusively there is no need for temperature takings in this program. Here what we can guarantee, nobody else can: Legal Reminder: sympto is effective: Please refer to the clinical studies page on our site. Remember: sympto can only interpret valid observations. Inaccurate observations will diminish effectiveness. You must have used sympto for six months and have communicated with a sympto counselor; you may also enter six previous cycles and we will validate them for free. Without this data we cannot guarantee the accuracy and absolute effectiveness of the method. I made one correction for you to see that you are in the infertile rose phase now: don’t use the yellow cloud sign, as explained in the guide. Best Harri Wettstein PhD Secretary of SymptoTherm Foundation +41 21 802 44 18 1132 Lully (VD) – SWITZERLAND

Why is the UK a FAM illiterate desert?

Dear Mrs. N,

As a first answer to your comment, I sent our request to your colleagues too. Your argument below does not hold at all. At least before judging our work, you could test it, this would show your scientific attitude.

Some years ago you had an other excuse not to recommend our apps: our pill kills clip. But when I told you that we could take it off if we can cooperate with the NHS, you never answered. What are your efforts to popularize FAM in the NHS? Do they have trained people?

So why are women from UK, who seems to be the only country where public health services mention FAM, still the most illiterate when it comes to fertility awareness? This is what we can prove you on sympto’s backoffice: most of the English speaking users come from America, Canada, Australia, etc. : England comes last.

Did you tell NHS about the clinical studies by Freundl etc.? Why don’t they read them? All these clinical studies are just ignored by the deciders of public health and MD: what did you do to inform them? So why do you ask us to make a study nobody will read and respect?

Our App comparison study is available for anyone. If one has read part 1 of our Manual, you can perfectly understand the issue, you don’t need to be a MD, every sympto user can.

I attended at a catholic meeting in mid November in London. I met four different methods, Creighton, Billings, NFP by Colleen and CCL represented by David Aldred. But in reality, all these organisations are not visible at all. I think they have just a handful people who learn not more.

There is good news too: all agree that our future lies in good apps. What do you think about this?

Why do you sabotage our initiative when we try to make this knowledge better known? Our Manual and home pages have been improved stylistically by a language specialist. So I don’t know what we are still doing wrong in your eyes.

So please could you at least test our system by entering some cycle charts and give me your feed back?

Many thanks four your understanding

sincerely

Harri


Dr. Harri Wettstein
Secretary of SymptoTherm Foundation
Sécheron 8 – 1132 Lully VD
Switzerland
phone +41 21 802 44 18 fax +41 21 802 37 35
skype: sympto.ch
sites: http://www.sympto.org, http://www.symptotherm.ch, Symptos.ch &
harri-wettstein.de

The message sent to K colleagues:

Dear symptothermal specialists

With all these new Smartphones apps, the old fertility monitors are definitely out: they are not really symptothermal and do not have proper charting systems.

We have published our new comparison study about really symptothermal apps:

http://www.sympto.org/etude2014_en.html

This study is based on the German large prospective studies of 2007 you can download on

http://www.sympto.org/tests_en.html

sympto has integrated this method and tested it now for over 6 years on several thousands cycles. We can show these cycles if there is some interest. We do not make again a prospective study about a method which has been certified for long, but we test apps that pretend to express this method.

Prof. Freundl in Germany is doing something similar now. He also thinks that the prospective studies in this field definitely belong to the past. According to him, the ethical guidelines are far more strict now and there is no money to do it anyway. The crucial point is to find out whether women working with apps do as well or even better than women who do the traditional manual charting. For us, the answer is clear: they do much better.

We are quite convinced now that the future of transmitting this still very rare symptothermal knowledge lies in the development of well designed apps.

I hope that some of you could test sympto.org and our Complete guide and give us your feedback!

Looking forward to reading you soon, I wish you a good time towards Christmas

Yours
Harri

Here the shocking rude answer by N:

Le 10.12.14 18:31, K a écrit :
> The NHS would want large prospective studies published in a peer-reviewed medical journal before they would consider recommending an app. I cannot recommend this until such research has been published in such a journal.
> N

>
> On 10 December 2014 at 17:19, Harri Wettstein wrote:
>
> Dear Mrs N
>
> I hope this message finds you well.
>
> We have published our new App comparison study on:
>
> http://www.sympto.org/etude2014_en.html
>
> Do you think that NHS could also be interested in this? To whom could I forward it?
>
> We have also press releases but they are all in French for the time being on our blog.sympto.org where you can find our activities.
>
> We are quite convinced now that the future of this symptothermal knowledge lies in the development of performant apps.
>
> I hope to read you soon and wish you a good time towards Christmas
>
> Yours
> Harri
>
>
>
> –
> Dr. Harri Wettstein
> Secretary of SymptoTherm Foundation
> Sécheron 8 – 1132 Lully VD
> Switzerland
> phone +41 21 802 44 18 fax +41 21 802 37 35
> skype: sympto.ch
> sites: http://www.sympto.org, http://www.symptotherm.ch, Symptos.ch &
> harri-wettstein.de
>
>
>
>
>
> –
> J
> Fertility UK, Oxford: http://www.fertilityuk.org

App Discussions: what we can do and what not! November 2014

Dear S, dear M

Great, finally I have found this Billings app http://www.nfpcharting.com which is often mentioned here in Europe but nobody could tell me the exact name! It seems to be quite new! Why didn’t you tell us this big event?

I try to test it and it looks great. I will spell out my questions to your service directly; I also see lots of counselors listed there, very good idea! To locate them you have to go to the main site page, excellent! I think you will soon enrich the main site with more information and features, making it kind of premium access.

It is in fact an excellent web app which synchronizes on the main server without you noticing it, so smoothly is runs! It is I guess what Davids calls UI/UX* development.

This could sum up the idea by David, if I am right, and I make it a bit more Swiss/American like with autonomous States and a Federal government:

1) You – the specific school (the States) – create a site well connected to a web app: I think it is more feasible with web apps first. Examples: NFP charting, CycleProGo, sympto, sympto pro (I hope soon) etc. Later may be sympto PLUS, no myNFP.de, no kindara: All standalones are very very trycky beasts.

2) The holding app (the Federal Government) is also linked to a Web site. It is linked to a site like for example Natural Womenhood which lists all the different the schools. This site could actually be the starting point. The holding web app has some standalone features on its own such as the list of the apps and an attractive presentation of the different apps, in order to facilitate and make the choice possible.

3) The holding app is not a fertility app on its own, it is just a turntable (you can say that?) for orientation and learning – very important: with forums, etc. If you have one Community forum, all the others must have this page linked on their app. The community is vital to attract women and it gives a special weight to the holding app. The community must be monitored!

4) The State app has some links towards the Federal apps and vice versa. I don’t know whether an Englishman can understand this!The Federal app for example would decide the criteria and it would accept a new app or put in in the waiting list if the app is not up to certain standards! All accepted State apps have to finance the Federal app.

I hope, Marguerite, our recent comparison study

http://www.sympto.org/etude2014_en.html

can be helpful for your purpose as it also suggests standards and establishes criteria !

If I can be any help, don’t hesitate!

Best regards
Harri

> Subject: Re: [nfpprofessionals] « natural family planning » and apps: Proposition of D
>
>
> Hi, all
>
> Since Harri has mentioned my proposal before I’ve written about it, here’s my thinking on it.
>
> What I mean by a single app:
>
> – One application providing NFP recording and interpretation, supported and formally endorsed by all reputable teaching groups.
>
> – User would select the method/teaching organisation whose methodology they want to follow. App should link to relevant websites etc to provide suitable information on method, learning process, etc.
>
> – Teaching and Support provided by the selected organisation, subject to their own rules for membership/support (so for CCL, for example, the user would need to enter a current membership number to be eligible for support). This would practically mean that organisations had to develop new or amended ways of teaching relevant to app users.
>
> – App then provides appropriate input screens for the signs of fertility used by that organisation
>
> – App follows the selected organisation’s methodology to provide interpretation. Individual organisations can also provide input to go alongside interpretations (for example, CCL might well want to include thoughts and input around using NFP as a couple – there’s obviously a risk that using an app takes couples back to the bad old days of family planning being the woman’s problem).
>
> – App has functionality to send chart information to selected organisation for support as required (on request of user). Again organisations would have to have a process for routing this to teachers: what process is up to them!
>
> – App has functionality to provide data automatically (subject to user consent) to inform future research. There might be the chance to get development costs part-funded by research projects.
>
> Costs:
> – initial development costs and ongoing maintenance costs shared between organisations.
> – any update to methodology should be covered by the organisation(s) whose methodology changes
>
>
> Why I propose a single app:
>
> 1. One single app means one set of UI/UX* development, and one set of application maintenance (to keep up with changes in iOS/Android etc, and to remain in line with UI/UX best practice) . This cuts the cost of development significantly, compared with each organisation investing in its own app, and allows the app to remain current.
>
> 2. One app means that all major providers endorse one app – and anything else is not endorsed. From the end user point of view, there is one NFP app; one place to go, and one place to recommend to friends. Every organisation’s website recommends this app and links direct to it on the app stores; media and health services can be pointed by all authoritative sources to this app as the one to recommend.
>
> 3. One app therefore rises up the rankings in the app stores more quickly. This is the only real way to compete for visibility with the scores of bad apps out there.
>
> *UI = User Interface. UX = User Experience. Subtly different aspects , and if an app designer doesn’t know the difference don’t work with them!
>
>
> Why I disagree with Harri’s reservation:
>
> I think it’s actually covered above. Yes, the change to the app ‘space’ for NFP activity means adaptation. But it’s easier for us all to adapt if we do it together and share insights.
>
> Harri and I discussed this at the UK NFP Conference, a meeting of NFP teachers/promoters from all organisation involved in this field in the UK. The sharing of experience and insights which goes on at that conference makes it very clear that if we can once put behind us the old-fashioned destructive competitive mentality (which, apart form anything else, is pretty unChristian), we can do far more good.
>
>
> At the end of the day, the NFP methodology someone uses is their choice, and we should be enabling properly informed choices in NFP. One ‘complete’ app providing reliable information on all modern methodologies enables that choice far more effectively than a bunch of confusing and fractured approaches, with no overall legitimacy.
>
> The threat here is pretty intense. Multiple badly-designed and poorly functioning NFP apps will get NFP a bad reputation. Unless we can develop something with an agreed approach and some sort of agreed ‘charter mark’, our own apps will simply be tiny competitors in a big pool. We need to be the big fish in the pool, and we need to join together to achieve that.
>
>
> D
>
> On 2 December 2014 at 10:16, Harri Wettstein harri@greenmail.ch [nfpprofessionals] wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear H
>
> I don’t agree that the best is always the enemy of God, at least no in the context of fertility apps:
>
> Indeed, when you have a closer look at our app comparison study,
>
> http://www.sympto.org/etude2014_en.html
>
> you will clearly find the limits of such a tool. The woman has to learn what a good observation is and what not, preferably with another competent woman counseling her during some months. A good app can only interpret sound observations.
>
> On sympto, we also have some American women who have observed more than 50 cycles for free on their iPhone/android without our help, but they belong to a minority and we suppose they had followed some courses.
>
> In our comparison study you will find none of all these « perfect » apps like Glow (« magic and science at work »), ovia and some 80 other fake apps which pretend to be « magic » and « scientific » at the same time, treating women like poor idiots. If they are magic, they are not scientific and if they are scientific, they should explain the whole story about the cycle with a proper manual and not just some bits and pieces. Half truths are the best lies. They pretend to know everything about the personal cycle (without endorsing any guarantees) and they tell women for example that they would ovulate today with a chance of 17,5 % and that next period comes in 12 day and such blatant nonsense. And they have millions of clients.
>
> We should inform together all women about these fake apps and wake them up.
>
> David Aldred suggests that we create one comprehensive app containing all the major methods: on his ideal app you could switch on your preferred methods, CCL, sympto pro, nfp-sensiplan, sympto, Billings, Creighton, etc.
>
> I think this is a wrong good idea. It is a good idea but not implementable at all for several reasons. One of them is: the process from the manual method to the program is very delicate and it can be done in different ways. You cannot just « copy » a manual method in a electronic method. Therefore, I think it would be reasonable that every school modernize its teaching tools and see what is going on out there on the App- and other stores. It is just the dark Middle Age when it comes to cycle apps on these stores.
>
> In the next future I hope there will be more good apps (symptothermal or Billings or Creighton, etc.) otherwise our cause is lost in the ocean of ignorance and wrong information.
>
> Why do all these bad fake apps have such a success? I am shocked.
>
> Wishing you a happy day
> Harri
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: mailto:nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2014 11:04 AM
> To: nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [nfpprofessionals] Fw: Google Alert – « natural family planning »
>
>
>
> Regarding John Kippley’s letter, I want to cite Chesterton: the best is the enemy of the good. While unloading the whole bag of information about the many biomarkers of fertility is factually indisputable, how practical is it? Also, even if the presumption of prior unchaste behavior may be correct for some persons, an adversarial approach is not likely to gain adherents. If, during the course of individual follow up such issues arise, that is the time to deal with them.
>
> Hs, M.D.
>
>
>
> http://www.teenstarprogram.org
>
> https://www.facebook.com/TeenSTARUS
>
> From: nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2014 10:23 AM
> To: nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [nfpprofessionals] Fw: Google Alert – « natural family planning »
>
>
>
> R,
>
> Thanks for your informative reply.
>
> Regarding the Synod and Humanae Vitae, I suspect that there will be a verbal affirmation of the encyclical.
>
> My concern is more about prudence. As you know, a committee of the US Bishops in 1989 urged that every engaged couple should be required to attend a full course on natural family planning as a normal part of preparation for marriage. But what constitutes a full course? That is a key question. In my opinion, couples learning NFP under such circumstances deserve to learn all the common signs of fertility and infertility so that they can make a well informed choice about what signs they want to use or not use. And that includes ecological breastfeeding according to the seven standards. How can they choose if this information is not taught? They also deserve to learn the physiological aspects of NFP in the context of Catholic evangelization and morality and the call to be generous in having children to be raised in the ways of the Lord. In the last analysis, once an “avoiding” couple understand the health hazards and abortifacient properties of hormonal birth control and the esthetic and effectiveness problems of barriers, the moral and practical choice boils down to fertility awareness with either marital chastity or the use of masturbation and/or marital sodomy during the fertile time. The unchaste behaviors are certainly NOT what is needed or intended by Catholic endorsements of NFP.
>
> It is my understanding that most of the NFP instruction manuals and programs avoid saying anything specific about masturbation and marital sodomy. We have to assume that many or our “required” students are unfortunately experienced in sinful sexual experiences. We have to assume that when they hear “abstinence” many will think of past experience as a way to get around it. In my opinion, that’s why Catholic-sponsored NFP needs to be taught in the context of Christian discipleship.
>
>
>
> J
>
> From: mailto:nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com
>
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2014 9:29 AM
>
> To: nfpprofessionals@yahoogroups.com
>
> Subject: Re: [nfpprofessionals] Fw: Google Alert – « natural family planning »
>
>
>
> Dear J,
>
> Dr. Thomas Bouchard and the Canadian doctors have been fighting this fight all year, and many of us have tried to write comments and posts and submit articles upon their behalf. The Huffington Post has largely been the dominant news media stirring up this debate. It is difficult to get our position heard, but I personally know many of us who have tried to help.
>
> On a different matter, your blog reflections on the Synod are really good. I wonder what you think about the fact that the beatification of Blessed Pope Paul VI took place during the closing ceremony? Does that indicate that the Synod will ally itself with Humanae Vitae? We can hope. Thanks for all your work,
>
> R
>
> Orlando Catholic Physicians Guild
> A Chartered Guild of the
> CATHOLIC MEDICAL ASSOCIATION
> Web: http://orlando-cma.org
>
> https://www.facebook.com/orlandocma
>
> https://twitter.com/orlandocma
>
>
>
> From: « ‘John F. Kippley’ jfkippley@fuse.net [nfpprofessionals] »
> To: NFP Group
> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2014 2:26 PM
> Subject: [nfpprofessionals] Fw: Google Alert – « natural family planning »
>
>
>
> I hope that some doctors replied to the Canadian debate and wondered if doctors who believe religiously in contraception and against natural methods ought to be allowed to practice in the situations now under consideration in Canada.
>
> John K.
>
> From: Google Alerts
>
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 3:00 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> « natural family planning »
>
> Daily update ⋅ November 29, 2014
>
>
>
>
> NEWS
>
>
>
>
> Doctors’ Religious Beliefs Shouldn’t Trump Patients’ Rights
>
> Huffington Post Canada
>
> So, for example, an individual who does not believe in anything but natural family planning should perhaps not go into family practice or be the only …
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> Our experience in some 43 years of teaching the STM and ecological breastfeeding is that it is eminently practical to teach how the mucus and temperature signs work together. Even though a bicycle is more complex than a unicycle, most folks find the two-wheeler much easier to use. If you are referring to complex biology, I certainly that it is not necessary to get into the whole complex of releasing factors etc. that are part of the system and need to be understood by medical students. I think it is unfortunate to label as “adversarial” an approach that simply teaches what the Church teaches about sexual morality. It is my understanding that we are all called to be prophets in the sense of simply teaching what needs to be taught. The words of Jesus as he embarked on his public ministry, “Repent and believe in the gospel” are, in my opinion, not to be regarded as unnecessarily adversarial but as prophetic and exemplary for his followers.
> A blessed first week of Advent to all.
> J
>
>
>
>
>
>
> –
> Harri Wettstein, Dr en psy.
>
> Sécheron 8 – CH-1132 Lully VD
> phone +41 21 802 44 18 fax +41 21 802 37 35
> skype: sympto.ch
> harri-wettstein.de
> http://www.symptotherm.ch, http://www.sympto.org & Symptos.ch
>
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Harri Wettstein, Dr en psy.

Sécheron 8 – CH-1132 Lully VD
phone +41 21 802 44 18 fax +41 21 802 37 35
skype: sympto.ch
harri-wettstein.de
http://www.symptotherm.ch, http://www.sympto.org & Symptos.ch

Diskussion mit Warentest 2014

Sehr geehrter Herr Schwan,

Wir hatten ja vor einiger Zeit eingehend über Fruchtbarkeits-Apps diskutiert (vgl. auch unterstehenden Brief).

Nun ist es soweit. Unsere neue Studie kann hier heruntergeladen werden, die Presseartikel sind vorläufig nur in Französisch und befinden sich auf dem blog.sympto.org. Wir haben zur Zeit nur eine kurze Deutsche Darstellung auf:

http://www.sympto.org/etude2014_de.html

Der Hauptartikel ist in Englisch.

Besten Dank für Ihre Reaktion! Für weitere Auskünfte stehe ich Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit besten Grüssen vom Genfersee


Dr. Harri Wettstein
Secretary of SymptoTherm Foundation
Sécheron 8 – 1132 Lully VD
Switzerland
phone +41 21 802 44 18 fax +41 21 802 37 35
skype: sympto.ch
sites: http://www.sympto.org, http://www.symptotherm.ch, Symptos.ch &
harri-wettstein.de

Sehr geehrter Herr Schwan,

Besten Dank für Ihren Interessanten Artikel!

Meine Kommentare dazu: die über 90 Tausend Apps im Gesundheitsbereich gehen wohl darauf zurück, dass jede Firma heutzutage eine App braucht, ob die nun benützt wird oder nicht (die meisten werden es nicht) – als Visitenkarte sozusagen.

Es steht also nicht sehr viel auf dem Spiel bei solchen Apps, sie können zwar ganz nützlich sein und scheinen zu beweisen, dass der Mensch doch ziemlich viel Moralin braucht, um korrekt zu essen und sich etwas mehr zu bewegen… Einer App hört er vielleicht besser zu als dem Arzt oder dem Gesundheitsberater. Da nimmt er sich vielleicht eher in die Hand.

Dazu gehören ja auch all die PillReminder, die sich auf dem Markt tummeln und die ganz eindeutig beweisen, dass es für sehr viele Frauen gar nicht so einfach ist, diese Pille regelmässig zu schlucken; dabei wird ja immer (fälschlicherweise) behauptet, die Pilleneinnahme sei eine besonders leichte Verhütung: objektiv gesehen zwar schon, doch in Wirklichkeit zeigt es sich, dass sich das Innere der Frauen gegen diese hormonelle Befürwortung stemmt und nicht mitmacht. Es ist ein psychologisch sehr verdächtiges « Vergessen ».

Dann gibt es auch die zig Kalenderapps, auch von Bayer, für Frauen mit Kinderwunsch. Die schaden zwar nicht, den genaueren Eisprungstag bestimmen können sie aber nicht, da die falsche Zyklustheorie dahinter steht. Bei diesen Theorien wird eine Eisprungsvoraussage angezeigt, was natürlich absurd ist, weil sich in diesem Bereich in den meisten Fällen, gerade dann, wenn es darauf ankommt, keine Voraussagen machen lassen. Und das ist den meisten Frauen nicht bewusst. Wir leben diesbezüglich im Zeitalter der totalen Verblödung durch Fehlinformationen.

Bei den symptothermalen Apps hingegen stellt sich die Frage, ob sie eine echte Alternative zur Pille und Co. darstellen. Das ist schon einiges brisanter. Wir haben den Beweis, dass dieser Anspruch für gewisse Apps zutrifft. Wenn Sie sich unsere Vergleichsstudien nochmals ansehen, dann fällt Ihnen sofort auf, dass wir uns nur auf das aller Objektivste, die Bestimmung des Fruchtbarkeitsfensters durch anerkannte Regelswerke von nfp-sensiplan und Rötzer, konzentriert haben. Diese Studie werden wir diesen Sommer mit der EPFL (Eidgenössische technische Hochschule Lausanne) wieder aufnehmen und ergänzen. Denn in diesem Bereich finden rasche Fortschritte statt und wir wollen das auch belegen können.

Hingegen gibt es eine ganze Bandbreite von Kriterien, die wir nicht alleine bewerten können und wollen. Sie finden diese zirka 45 Kriterien aufgeführt im Anhang (annexes), leider nur auf französisch. Bei Bedarf werde ich ihnen das Ganze gerne übersetzen. Aber einen Blick darauf werfen, können Sie ja schon. In der Studie schwebte mir vor, dass die verschiedenen symptothermalen App-Hersteller sich einmal treffen, um sich auf einen qualitativen Kriterienkatalog zu einigen. Das können Sie aber als Aussenstehender mit Ihrer Erfahrung sogar noch viel besser (zumal ein Treffen der App-Hersteller noch in weiter Ferne liegt, wir sind ja alles ganz kleine idealistische Akteure.) Diese 45 Kriterien werden bruchstückhaft in der Mitte der Seite « Orientierungspunkte – nicht ausgewertet – » aufgeführt und geben wichtige Anhaltspunkte für die Benützerinnen. Schauen Sie sich diese auch bitte nochmals an. Den deutschen Text haben Sie ja bekommen, er findet sich auch auf unserem Blog von sympto.org Presse (Deutsch).

Hier nur soviel: das Sicherheitsproblem stellt sich nicht bei diesen Apps: jedes Konto ist nur über ein PW und das Email zugänglich. Hingegen hat nicht jede App eine verlinkte Homepage mit dem Impressum (Autoren- und Quellenverweise) und den Allgemeinen Bedingungen (z.B. die Garantie, dass mit diesen Daten nicht gehandelt wird). Bei Lily z. B., die vorläufig eine reine App ist, gibt es keine Synchronisation zum Basis-Konto online. Ein Zyklusblatt braucht aber eine Mindestgrösse eines iPads, um alles übersichtlich darstellen zu können. Dann könnte man sich auch vorstellen, dass es ein Vorteil ist, wenn die App und die dazugehörende Homepage eine didaktische Lernhilfe bietet: mynfp.de verweist einfach immer nur auf die Lehrmittel von nfp-sensiplan, bei FertilityFriends und bei uns sympto ist aber der didaktische Support voll integriert. Usw. usf. Wie gesagt haben wir uns 45 Kriterien vorgestellt!

Zu tun für Sie gäbe es also mehr als genug.

Ich könnte mir vorstellen, dass wir uns einmal treffen und ich ihnen genau aufzeige, wie die objektive Seite der Bestimmung des Fruchtbarkeitsfensters zustande kommt. Diese Seite versuchen wir auch, von Aussenstehenden validieren zu lassen. Das liegt ganz im Interesse der Sache!

Ich hoffe, dass ich Ihnen hier ein paar Gedankenanstösse vermitteln konnte, dass eine solche Vergleichsstudie zustande kommt und verbleibe
Mit besten Grüssen


Dr. Harri Wettstein
Secretary of SymptoTherm Foundation
Sécheron 8 – 1132 Lully VD
Switzerland
phone +41 21 802 44 18 fax +41 21 802 37 35
skype: sympto.ch
sites: http://www.sympto.org, http://www.symptotherm.ch, Symptos.ch &
harri-wettstein.de

Le 21.05.14 17:17, Schwan, Gunnar a écrit :
> Über die Studie (auf deutsch) würde ich mich freuen. Ich hänge Ihnen unseren Artikel vom letzten Jahr an.
>
> Viele Grüße,
> Gunnar Schwan
>
>
> —–Ursprüngliche Nachricht—–
> Von: Harri Wettstein [mailto:info@symptotherm.ch]
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 21. Mai 2014 17:09
> An: Schwan, Gunnar
> Betreff: Re: AW: Vergleichsstudie über Frauenzyklus-Apps
>
> Sehr geehrter Herr Schwan,
>
> Besten Dank für Ihre Zeilen!
>
> Natürlich gehe ich nicht davon aus, dass Warentest einfach unsere hausinterne Studie tel quel publiziert, doch haben wir damit schon mal nützliche Vorarbeit geleistet. Ich könnte Ihnen auch die gesamte Studie mit den Kriterien usw. zukommen lassen. Sie ist allerdings (noch) auf französisch.
>
> Eine Analyse über die Zyklus-Apps scheint mir sehr vordringlich, da damit endlich eine natürliche Alternative zu den Hormonen für die Frauen zugänglich wird. Dabei erscheint mir besonders wichtig, dass die App auswertet, ansonsten man die Zuverlässigkeit nicht analysieren kann.
> Zyklus-Apps sind Gesundheits-Apps im weiteren Sinne. Von der Zyklusstruktur aus lassen sich viele Schlüsse auf den Gesundheitszustand ziehen.
>
> Haben Sie die Ergebnisse der Gesundheits-Apps irgendwo auf Ihre Homepage gebracht?
>
> Bitte halten sie uns auf dem laufenden
>
> Mit besten Grüssen
>
> –
> Dr. Harri Wettstein
> Secretary of SymptoTherm Foundation
> Sécheron 8 – 1132 Lully VD
> Switzerland
> phone +41 21 802 44 18 fax +41 21 802 37 35
> skype: sympto.ch
> sites: http://www.sympto.org, http://www.symptotherm.ch, Symptos.ch & harri-wettstein.de
>
>
>
> Le 21.05.14 16:31, Schwan, Gunnar a écrit :
>> Sehr geehrter Herr Dr. Wettstein,
>>
>> ich bin Projektleiter im Team Ernährung, Kosmetik und Gesundheit. Ganz konkret untersuche ich Gesundheits-Dienstleistungen. Dazu zählen wir auch Gesundheits-Apps wie solche zum Thema Frauenzyklus. Wir haben letzten Herbst das letzte Mal über Gesundheits-Apps berichtet und werden das sicher bald wieder tun. Leider kann ich Ihnen nicht garantieren, dass es sich dann um Frauenzyklus-Apps handeln wird. Auch können wir Ihre Untersuchungsergebnisse nicht einbeziehen, da wir per Satzung ganz unabhängig untersuchen müssen. Trotzdem nehme ich natürlich gern die übersandten Informationen auf. Haben Sie vielen Dank!
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>> Gunnar Schwan
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________
>>
>> Dr. Gunnar Schwan
>> Dipl.-Psych.
>> Projektleiter
>>
>> Ernährung, Kosmetik und Gesundheit
>>
>> Fon +49 30 26 31-22 45
>> Fax +49 30 26 31-24 24
>>
>> g.schwan@stiftung-warentest.de
>> http://www.test.de
>>
>> Stiftung Warentest
>> Lützowplatz 11-13
>> 10785 Berlin
>> ____________________________________________
>>
>> Stiftung privaten Rechts mit Sitz in Berlin
>> Vorstand: Hubertus Primus
>> Weitere Mitglieder der Geschäftsleitung: Dr. Holger Brackemann, Daniel Gläser
>> USt.-ID Nr. DE 136725570
>>
>>
>> Die Stiftung Warentest testet mit wissenschaftlichen Methoden, bewertet auf der Basis objektiver
>> Untersuchungen und veröffentlicht die Ergebnisse in den anzeigenfreien Zeitschriften test und
>> Finanztest, in Büchern und im Internet unter http://www.test.de.
>>
>>
>>
>> —–Ursprüngliche Nachricht—–
>> Von: Harri Wettstein [mailto:info@symptotherm.ch]
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 16. Mai 2014 18:22
>> An: email
>> Betreff: An Frau Isabella Eigner: Vergleichsstudie über Frauenzyklus-Apps
>>
>> Verhüten mit einer Smatphone-App?
>>
>> Sehr geehrte Frau Eigner
>>
>> Vor rund 10 Jahren hat Warentest an einer nfp-Studie mitgemacht. Es wurden dort Verhütungsgeräte mit der NFP-Sensiplan-Methode verglichen. Die Zeit der von Hand ausgefüllten Zyklusblätter ist aber stark am Aussterben, zumal eine gute App eben eine gute Auswertung garantiert.
>>
>> Zurzeit sind es rund 60 Frauenzyklus-Apps, die vom App- und GoogleStore heruntergeladen werden können und die zig hunderttausend Benützerinnen haben. Das ist die gute Botschaft. Die schlechte ist, dass die meisten Apps auf der total veralteten Kalendermethode aufgebaut sind, die Frauen fehl informiert werden und für Verhütungszwecke völlig unbrauchbar sind.
>>
>> Seriöse Untersuchungen über diese spezifischen Frauen-Apps sind mir nicht bekannt.
>>
>> Unsere Stiftung hat es letzten Sommer unternommen, die 6 seriösen Apps, die auf der symptothermalen Methode beruhen, zu untersuchen und zu vergleichen. Die Ergebnisse finden Sie in unserer Studie anbei.
>>
>> Könnten Sie diese Thematik in Ihrer Stiftung auch einmal bearbeiten und z. B. unsere Untersuchung miteinbeziehen? Gibt es gewisse Formalitäten, die für dieses mein Anliegen berücksichtigt werden müssen?
>>
>> Mit bestem Dank für Ihre Antwort
>> Ihr
>>
>>
>> –
>> Dr. Harri Wettstein
>> Secretary of SymptoTherm Foundation
>> Sécheron 8 – 1132 Lully VD
>> Switzerland
>> phone +41 21 802 44 18 fax +41 21 802 37 35
>> skype: sympto.ch
>> sites: http://www.sympto.org, http://www.symptotherm.ch, Symptos.ch & harri-wettstein.de
>>
>


Dr. Harri Wettstein
Secretary of SymptoTherm Foundation
Sécheron 8 – 1132 Lully VD
Switzerland
phone +41 21 802 44 18 fax +41 21 802 37 35
skype: sympto.ch
sites: http://www.sympto.org, http://www.symptotherm.ch, Symptos.ch &
harri-wettstein.de

Analysis fo BillingMentor app on Internet

Dear A,

Many thanks for this quick and thorough reading of my comments! This National Fertility Conference was real chance of yours, we should do that also in Europe but I doubt that there are workshops in Milan in June 2015:

http://www.2015nfpcongress.org

(I hope you will join us!)

Let’s start with some straight forward points, the others need more reflection on my side.

In order to test sympto engine, you just open an account on sympto.org like I did on your site: you enter a (correct) email address and a password. Then you must validate your email – the usual procedure everywhere now. If the validation email does not come, just tell me, this can happen from time to time. (It goes into spams etc.)

You can also on the calendar on the first prompt who invites you to enter the start of the menses, 3 red drops.

Once you are on your chart, you can click on the figure on the top left of the chart, which signifies the number of observed cycles and you can jump back to the past in order to enter your 3 cycles.
sympto has been designed to facilitate the charting of past cycles, you will see.

Once you start, you go into the parameters which are accessible from the entry desk. (When you pass over an icon, its meaning is explained, the complete description is in the manual.) There you activate the Fluid mode only (we call it « Billings mode », because Rötzer did it also in his books and we used to speak like this with him. If this bothers you we could also call it Elixir Mode. We prefer honour the name of Billings. I think we should not make an argument out of this at this stage of a most precious exchange.)

Second, you activate the Expert mode which opens up more possibilities.

Then you take some easier Billings continuous charts (it must not be the very beginning) to find out whether sympto is able to generate a Peak day at the same day as on your billingsMentor. We know perfectly well that when we enter sympto charts on your billingsMentor as I did, data stemming from a user without any proper fluid instruction, we do not have enough information to generate a proper Billings chart. This is obvious; what is not, is whether a proper filled in Billings ovulation chart can be put on sympto without missing vital information such as Peak day, start of new cycle, infertile days. This test would be great!

Of course, your idea of a prompting app is excellent too: we did our best in this regard on sympto where we can change all the educational messages immediately and improve them. But the woman can get rid of them if she clicks twice. I think your approach will only be welcome by women and couples who have fairly good basic notions of Billings ovulation method. Newcomers from outside of your community might become nervous and drop out. Perhaps, it is just a supposition. The fact is that the sympto engine does not need to be improved any more as it turns from 2008 onwards. It does not need complex entries such as Pd deactivation, Pd are automatically deactivated. The only meta entry is when you start sympto by the 3 red drops. We could add some new features but as long as the world is deaf to our cause, it is too costly. We also offer sympto as open source. Still, to use the system properly, the woman has to understand what she is doing and to know what a good observation is. This is where the counseling is vital.

Luteal phase: we count the luteal phase from the first temperature rise onwards. For us the first 3 cycles are ovulatory but not the 4th (which I did not enter). « Ovulatory » does not mean for us that there was a) a successful ovulation (without any LUF etc.) and b) that the luteal phase was at least 9 days long. It can be also much shorter. This luteal deficiency is very common now on all charts due to our oestrogen dominant societies. I don’t think this this interpretation of ours is the ultimate truth and they way you analyse such cases might reveal a lots of insights we do not have. I must again read your paper concerning the wet and slippery issue.

As for the App: if you create a web app (like sympto free), not a standalone app (like sympto PLUS, a tricky beast), you don’t have to worry about the improvements and changes on the cloud. I think it is what you mean by Smartphone interface. The point is that the stores want to have a bit more than just a Smartphone interface!

Looking forward to hearing about your testing!

Yours
Harri

Dear A

Many thanks for your help. I send a copy to Richard Fehring of my fascinating discoveries I could make!

I entered the first 3 cycles of this sympto test woman 2 (enclosed) and I am really impressed by the subtleties of your system!

I send you the 3 original sympto cycles so that you can compare. I was not able to enclose the Billings format which I could not download as a pdf file: I understand your confidentiality terms only allow a Billings specialist to see what her client is doing! So please have a look at what I entered on my account. (On sympto, we can have cycle links or pdf files for MD, etc. and some women like to discuss her charts on forums. In this case, they have to break the absolute confidentiality agreement they have when they start.)

I can understand that cycle 1 cannot be interpreted by Billings as there are only very rudimentary mucus indications by the woman (who does not know anything about proper mucus observation) but which are enough on sympto because there is a well established temperature rise and the double check can be done properly.

After our second cycle, your system recognizes a new cycle, cycle 2, which is cycle 3 enclosed. Indeed, if on sympto we take out the temperature parameter (which is possible on a special Mode), only the first but not the second and third cycle could be interpreted in a correct way. We have similar rules for PD: PD must be confirmed properly during 3 days, but then on sympto, if a second PD arises, it will deactivate the first one. You can see that on cycle 2: PD of day 11 is in a soft colour and the flashy PD of day 17 is the last one, thus the right one.

The point is now whether the monitor is a better interpretor than the human pattern recognition. In your paper you say:

« Humans have amazing pattern recognition abilities, so one can expect that billingsMenor will always fall short of human expert performance in recognizing a non-dry BIP ».

I can fully understand that it is very difficult to program a system in a way that enables identifying individual BIPs. It needs several cycles as you state. When it comes to program the Billings method, one suddenly realises that this method is not so simple and easy to learn and to manage – you agree to that in your paper – as we can hear sometimes around. It is too subtle to be easy. (I guess this is one reason where there exists several other mucus methods not based on the BIP).

Your are actually in the paradigm of the notion of BIP which, as it seems, can be better identified by an expert user than even a sophisticated program. On sympto, we have this kind of paradigm on the breastfeeding and pre menopause mode where we do not ask for temperatures (so we are a bit of symptothermal dissidents in this respect but we found out that the temperature taking is too cumbersome for bf mothers and does not add effectiveness).

But on the standard symptothermal program, we have exactly the opposite situation, verified over the last 6 years: the program interprets better than any expert, even me. There is a debug function I activate when I don’t agree. There I can see what sympto does, but sympto is always right! The problem is on the observation quality side: if the observations are not good enough, the program cannot interpret. We can see immediately the observation quality after some days and instruct the woman. The observation technique is the big thing the woman has to learn. And when she has been followed during 6 month by a counselor we can guarantee the avoiding pregnancy goal. (Yes, it is then 100 % effective, the problem is that women, after some months/years, start neglecting the minimum of what they should do, but we can see this negligence immediately on the backoffice of sympto. So we can actually guarantee natural contraception.)

When a sympto woman becomes an expert of at least her own cycles, she does not have to know all the temperature rise variances which are done mathematically. She just has to enter a minimum of enough good observations in the expert mode. She can also stop temperature takings!

The symptothermal people are in quite different paradigm, the paradigm of double check at the beginning of the fertile phase – no way to give infertile preovulatory days once the fertile window has opened, except in the bf mode. And the double check of the closing of the fertile window: after that, even one day of fertile mucus will not change the pattern as it is considered as a oestrogen peak which can occur in the middle of the luteal phase, not only in the end, before menses.

Now I wish you all the best for putting this program on an Smartphone app!

Is it possible that some Billings specialist would enter some 3 real, consecutive cycles on sympto as I did on billingsMentor?

If yes, you just switch on the expert mode on your sympto profile in order to enable more possibilities. The idea is that you enter the relevant part by an icon (you can find its description in the Manual) and the less important part in the remark of the day. For example, we do not make a relevant difference between wet and slippery (one thing) or moist and damp (another). I don’t know whether this nuance is really vital for a proper Billings BIP identification. If yes I would like to learn more about it. For us some nuances are not vital as we have this PD safe guard rule: the last PD of the cycle is the right one, if it is not confirmed by the proper temperature rise, it will not indicate ovation phase. And: Following Rötzer/nfp-Sensiplan we do not have the « sticky » sensation, just chose dry feeling on sympto, which is different from « nothing felt ». So you have that difference of yours. We do not differentiate quantity (Rötzer) but only quality (which you differentiate in fluidity and color (for us one criterion). That’s it.

It would be interesting to see a case of a woman with two BIP before her PD and to see how sympto is missing infertile days!

Have an excellent WE I very much enjoyed this exercise!

Harri

Le 05.12.14 13:11, Audrey Smith a écrit :
> Dear Harri,
> Further to my previous message.
> Click on the View Button in the left hand frame. Select All and Submit.
> As you have now entered data for 2011-11-19 and 2011-11-20 it would be a sensible idea to delete the data for 2014-12-04. To do this
>
> Regards,
> A
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: Harri Wettstein
> To: Ah
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 10:12 PM
> Subject: Re: Interpretive apps
>
> Dear A,
>
> Many thanks for your precisions and for helping me personally!
>
> Let my go into your text:
>
>
>
>
> Le 05.12.14 07:13, Audrey Smith a écrit :
>>
>> Dear Harri,
>>
>> We would like to assist.
>>
>> It is important that the woman reads and becomes aware of the way in which to make her daily observations according to the Billings Method. We do have women registering for our service that have previously followed a different natural method with different ways of making observations which are appropriate for those methods but not so for following the Billings Method. Different methods have their own directions. It is important for all women registering to read the Help. In particular because your main background is symptom-thermal, please read the links at http://www.ovulationmentor.org/tips.html
> Yes I am fully aware of that – we are all theory biased – , I did a Billings introduction course in Geneva with one or our trainees in Spring with the couple Renard from France and I am very impressed by the coherence and the subtleties of your method. Billings ovulation method is the worldwide best organized NFP movement. You do not fear other languages like other nfp schools and you always try to be closed to the user language. I appreciate that.
>
>> We set the Fertility History commencement time to “from this day forward” for several reasons.
>>
>> The system, will at times question the women, or give a statement on her daily entry. She is better able to recall at this time about a particular recording and respond if appropriate. Recalling information some weeks or months previously is not at all reliable.
>
> We have newcomers on sympto from all kinds of schools, also Billings, Creighton, CCL, Rötzer and we always encourage them to enter some of their old cycles in order to know the sympto system better. We also validate their old cycles for free with educational comments.
>
>
>> A registration is for one woman only with continuing daily observations. If you are testing you should use different registrations for fertility data for each genuine woman’s historical fertility charts. We recommend data from real life situations for any testing, not artificially manufactured charts.
> Yes you are right: I want to test the continuous cycles of woman 2 of our app comparison study. She has done more than 30 cycles but we hardly know her. She just learnt with the infos given on sympto.org.
> You can see some of our comments directly on
>
> http://www.sympto.org/etude2014_en.html
>
> of her cycle 18 and you also see the long infertile preovulatory phase. Definitely, Billings can liberate more infertile days in cycles before cycle 12. We – the symptothermal people – have to wait until cycle 13 to have more (pink) infertile days. The pros and cons could be discussed once.
>
>
>> Should a particular woman have a change in her fertility status she should update her Fertility History.
>>
>> To be able to enter backdated data from your current registration:
>>
>> 1. Click on Registration Pages button in left hand frame.
>>
>> 2. Click on Fertility History button in bottom frame.
>>
>> 3. Scroll to bottom of the displaying your current fertility history.
>>
>> 4. Click Delete/OK
>>
>> 5. Click on Registration Pages button in left hand frame, again.
>>
>> 6. Click on Fertility History button in bottom frame.
>>
>> 7. Re-enter your fertility history data, this time backdate the field “This entry applies …”
>>
>> 8. Submit.
> I tried several times but I did not succeed. I entered a new start but it is not visible as chart, the old cycle of 2011 does not appear. I get messages such as:
>
> 735936 731173
> New entry made for 2001-11-19
>
> But I don’t see the chart.
>
> And I am blocked by educational messages. But sorry, I am not a computer champion. I hope you can acccess my account and see it.
>
>> Please be aware that we discourage users from entering any personal identifying information in their records. Normally we would remove it. We don’t use email to users for privacy reasons. Our system is meant to be used anonymously.
> This is very important, also for us. That’s why we have also a in box message system like you.
>
> So I will continue to study you paper and I wish you an excellent WE
>
> Harri
>
>
>> We would be glad to hear from you and answer any further questions. Please communicate to me personally, not through the nfpprofessions list.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> A
>>
>> —– Original Message —–
>> From: Harri Wettstein
>> To: audrey.smith@apex.net.au
>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 12:55 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfpprofessionals] Interpretive apps
>>
>> Hello!
>>
>> I read your challenging paper and now I try to enter test cycles on my account harri@greenmail.ch,
>> But the system says
>>
>> « You cannot enter data for a previous fertility history era. »
>>
>> How is it possible to test your mentor?
>>
>> Many thanks for your help
>>
>> Sincerely
>>
>> –
>> Harri Wettstein, Dr en psy.
>>
>> Sécheron 8 – CH-1132 Lully VD
>> phone +41 21 802 44 18 fax +41 21 802 37 35
>> skype: sympto.ch
>> harri-wettstein.de
>> http://www.symptotherm.ch, http://www.sympto.org & Symptos.ch
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> For S and A
>>
>> This issue of whether interpreting or not is already discussed in our The Complete Symptothermal Guide on sympto.org, it is a bit disappointing to realize that you didn’t read at least the introduction, where the issue is addressed.
>>
>> I downloaded the BillingsMentor paper, great! I have to study the mentor and the paper first which looks very interesting : why didn’t you put this mentor on an app? The autor of nfpcharting, Lawson Culver, tells me that his app does not interpret because « he doesn’t want to be liable for child support payments »! So there seems to be a contradictory approach between the Billings Monitor and nfpcharting? Apps are the future of NFP admittedly. We all agree to that me seems.
>>
>> An app does not have to interpret, but if it does, it should do it correctly. There are unfortunately only 2 reliable symptothermal apps out there until now, which I regret:
>>
>> http://www.sympto.org/etude2014_en.html
>>
>>
>> As Rötzer already pointed out, the woman should have access to the complete educational material for being able to learn NFP by herself. I never said that the woman « must » have a personal trainer. Where did I say that? Most women on sympto don’t have! What we say is this: we can guarantee natural contraception (or call it effectiveness for postponing pregnancy) if the woman has been followed 6 months on sympto’s message box by a counselor. And this is quite different I hope you agree.
>>
>> Apps like Glow, ovia, etc. which are very popular because of their forums etc. interpret (« predict »!) all sorts of stupidities but in their legal reminder they do not guarantee anything. But women still use them. On these apps women do not learn how to observe correctly. The counselor is mainly there to discuss her observation quality and to improve it. For some women, the observations are easy because obvious for others not because they have complicated or disturbed cycles.
>>
>> If an app integrates vital educational elements like error messages, daily messages (of what must be observed) etc. – these elements are a big help for the user. No need to make a study to proof this evidence. But the app can generate these messages only when on the ground of a correct interpretation!
>>
>> Audrey, I will give you a feedback. The interesting point in the Billings method is the concept of basic infertile pattern which is not a simple observation but some combination of it because the monitor can do that too. I am very exited to read this paper.
>>
>>
>> Best
>> harri
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 03.12.14 09:24, [nfpprofessionals] a écrit :
>>>
>>> I am a co-author of the paper, S., S. 2014
>>> billingsMentor: Adapting natural family planning to information technology and relieving the user of unnecessary tasks. Linacre Quarterly 2014 81: 219-238. DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1179/2050854914Y.0000000024
>>>
>>> The paper is available for download free of charge from the above URL. It is a peer reviewed paper and it discusses a number of issues that have been raised recently in this forum.
>>>
>>> billingsMentor (http://www.billingsmentor.org) is a fully interpretive web application for the Billings method. It has functions specifically designed to help the user describe her fertility symptoms correctly and sufficiently, and to understand a fertility chart in an intuitive format designed for BillingsMethod interpretive apps. These features are currently being evaluated, using the evidence from charts submitted by more than 400 women who have made their anonymous data available for our research. Currently we have 73,000 days of fertility records (2600 nominal cycles) and associated data available for analysis.
>>>
>>> We do not take the view that Harri Wettstein and others have taken that all women must have personal instruction. After all, it has been known for a long time that many women have successfully used the Billings Method solely by studying the book written by Dr Lyn Billings and Ann Westmore.
>>>
>>> The teacher/student mode of learning NFP has produced many excellent outcomes over the years, but its shortcomings are seldom acknowledged. These are identified and discussed in our paper.
>>>
>>> A

Very Very interesting Billings Discussion!

Dear Audrey

Many thanks for your help. I send a copy to Richard Fehring of my fascinating discoveries I could make!

I entered the first 3 cycles of this sympto test woman 2 (enclosed) and I am really impressed by the subtleties of your system!

I send you the 3 original sympto cycles so that you can compare. I was not able to enclose the Billings format which I could not download as a pdf file: I understand your confidentiality terms only allow a Billings specialist to see what her client is doing! So please have a look at what I entered on my account. (On sympto, we can have cycle links or pdf files for MD, etc. and some women like to discuss her charts on forums. In this case, they have to break the absolute confidentiality agreement they have when they start.)

I can understand that cycle 1 cannot be interpreted by Billings as there are only very rudimentary mucus indications by the woman (who does not know anything about proper mucus observation) but which are enough on sympto because there is a well established temperature rise and the double check can be done properly.

After our second cycle, your system recognizes a new cycle, cycle 2, which is cycle 3 enclosed. Indeed, if on sympto we take out the temperature parameter (which is possible on a special Mode), only the first but not the second and third cycle could be interpreted in a correct way. We have similar rules for PD: PD must be confirmed properly during 3 days, but then on sympto, if a second PD arises, it will deactivate the first one. You can see that on cycle 2: PD of day 11 is in a soft colour and the flashy PD of day 17 is the last one, thus the right one.

The point is now whether the monitor is a better interpretor than the human pattern recognition. In your paper you say:

« Humans have amazing pattern recognition abilities, so one can expect that billingsMenor will always fall short of human expert performance in recognizing a non-dry BIP ».

I can fully understand that it is very difficult to program a system in a way that enables identifying individual BIPs. It needs several cycles as you state. When it comes to program the Billings method, one suddenly realises that this method is not so simple and easy to learn and to manage – you agree to that in your paper – as we can hear sometimes around. It is too subtle to be easy. (I guess this is one reason where there exists several other mucus methods not based on the BIP).

Your are actually in the paradigm of the notion of BIP which, as it seems, can be better identified by an expert user than even a sophisticated program. On sympto, we have this kind of paradigm on the breastfeeding and pre menopause mode where we do not ask for temperatures (so we are a bit of symptothermal dissidents in this respect but we found out that the temperature taking is too cumbersome for bf mothers and does not add effectiveness).

But on the standard symptothermal program, we have exactly the opposite situation, verified over the last 6 years: the program interprets better than any expert, even me. There is a debug function I activate when I don’t agree. There I can see what sympto does, but sympto is always right! The problem is on the observation quality side: if the observations are not good enough, the program cannot interpret. We can see immediately the observation quality after some days and instruct the woman. The observation technique is the big thing the woman has to learn. And when she has been followed during 6 month by a counselor we can guarantee the avoiding pregnancy goal. (Yes, it is then 100 % effective, the problem is that women, after some months/years, start neglecting the minimum of what they should do, but we can see this negligence immediately on the backoffice of sympto. So we can actually guarantee natural contraception.)

When a sympto woman becomes an expert of at least her own cycles, she does not have to know all the temperature rise variances which are done mathematically. She just has to enter a minimum of enough good observations in the expert mode. She can also stop temperature takings!

The symptothermal people are in quite different paradigm, the paradigm of double check at the beginning of the fertile phase – no way to give infertile preovulatory days once the fertile window has opened, except in the bf mode. And the double check of the closing of the fertile window: after that, even one day of fertile mucus will not change the pattern as it is considered as a oestrogen peak which can occur in the middle of the luteal phase, not only in the end, before menses.

Now I wish you all the best for putting this program on an Smartphone app!

Is it possible that some Billings specialist would enter some 3 real, consecutive cycles on sympto as I did on billingsMentor?

If yes, you just switch on the expert mode on your sympto profile in order to enable more possibilities. The idea is that you enter the relevant part by an icon (you can find its description in the Manual) and the less important part in the remark of the day. For example, we do not make a relevant difference between wet and slippery (one thing) or moist and damp (another). I don’t know whether this nuance is really vital for a proper Billings BIP identification. If yes I would like to learn more about it. For us some nuances are not vital as we have this PD safe guard rule: the last PD of the cycle is the right one, if it is not confirmed by the proper temperature rise, it will not indicate ovation phase. And: Following Rötzer/nfp-Sensiplan we do not have the « sticky » sensation, just chose dry feeling on sympto, which is different from « nothing felt ». So you have that difference of yours. We do not differentiate quantity (Rötzer) but only quality (which you differentiate in fluidity and color (for us one criterion). That’s it.

It would be interesting to see a case of a woman with two BIP before her PD and to see how sympto is missing infertile days!

Have an excellent WE I very much enjoyed this exercise!

Harri

Le 05.12.14 13:11, Audrey Smith a écrit :
> Dear Harri,
> Further to my previous message.
> Click on the View Button in the left hand frame. Select All and Submit.
> As you have now entered data for 2011-11-19 and 2011-11-20 it would be a sensible idea to delete the data for 2014-12-04. To do this
>
> Regards,
> Audrey Smith
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: Harri Wettstein
> To: Audrey Smith
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 10:12 PM
> Subject: Re: Interpretive apps
>
> Dear Audrey,
>
> Many thanks for your precisions and for helping me personally!
>
> Let my go into your text:
>
>
>
>
> Le 05.12.14 07:13, Audrey Smith a écrit :
>>
>> Dear Harri,
>>
>> We would like to assist.
>>
>> It is important that the woman reads and becomes aware of the way in which to make her daily observations according to the Billings Method. We do have women registering for our service that have previously followed a different natural method with different ways of making observations which are appropriate for those methods but not so for following the Billings Method. Different methods have their own directions. It is important for all women registering to read the Help. In particular because your main background is symptom-thermal, please read the links at http://www.ovulationmentor.org/tips.html
> Yes I am fully aware of that – we are all theory biased – , I did a Billings introduction course in Geneva with one or our trainees in Spring with the couple Renard from France and I am very impressed by the coherence and the subtleties of your method. Billings ovulation method is the worldwide best organized NFP movement. You do not fear other languages like other nfp schools and you always try to be closed to the user language. I appreciate that.
>
>> We set the Fertility History commencement time to “from this day forward” for several reasons.
>>
>> The system, will at times question the women, or give a statement on her daily entry. She is better able to recall at this time about a particular recording and respond if appropriate. Recalling information some weeks or months previously is not at all reliable.
>
> We have newcomers on sympto from all kinds of schools, also Billings, Creighton, CCL, Rötzer and we always encourage them to enter some of their old cycles in order to know the sympto system better. We also validate their old cycles for free with educational comments.
>
>
>> A registration is for one woman only with continuing daily observations. If you are testing you should use different registrations for fertility data for each genuine woman’s historical fertility charts. We recommend data from real life situations for any testing, not artificially manufactured charts.
> Yes you are right: I want to test the continuous cycles of woman 2 of our app comparison study. She has done more than 30 cycles but we hardly know her. She just learnt with the infos given on sympto.org.
> You can see some of our comments directly on
>
> http://www.sympto.org/etude2014_en.html
>
> of her cycle 18 and you also see the long infertile preovulatory phase. Definitely, Billings can liberate more infertile days in cycles before cycle 12. We – the symptothermal people – have to wait until cycle 13 to have more (pink) infertile days. The pros and cons could be discussed once.
>
>
>> Should a particular woman have a change in her fertility status she should update her Fertility History.
>>
>> To be able to enter backdated data from your current registration:
>>
>> 1. Click on Registration Pages button in left hand frame.
>>
>> 2. Click on Fertility History button in bottom frame.
>>
>> 3. Scroll to bottom of the displaying your current fertility history.
>>
>> 4. Click Delete/OK
>>
>> 5. Click on Registration Pages button in left hand frame, again.
>>
>> 6. Click on Fertility History button in bottom frame.
>>
>> 7. Re-enter your fertility history data, this time backdate the field “This entry applies …”
>>
>> 8. Submit.
> I tried several times but I did not succeed. I entered a new start but it is not visible as chart, the old cycle of 2011 does not appear. I get messages such as:
>
> 735936 731173
> New entry made for 2001-11-19
>
> But I don’t see the chart.
>
> And I am blocked by educational messages. But sorry, I am not a computer champion. I hope you can acccess my account and see it.
>
>> Please be aware that we discourage users from entering any personal identifying information in their records. Normally we would remove it. We don’t use email to users for privacy reasons. Our system is meant to be used anonymously.
> This is very important, also for us. That’s why we have also a in box message system like you.
>
> So I will continue to study you paper and I wish you an excellent WE
>
> Harri
>
>
>> We would be glad to hear from you and answer any further questions. Please communicate to me personally, not through the nfpprofessions list.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Audrey Smith
>>
>> —– Original Message —–
>> From: Harri Wettstein
>> To: audrey.smith@apex.net.au
>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 12:55 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfpprofessionals] Interpretive apps
>>
>> Hello!
>>
>> I read your challenging paper and now I try to enter test cycles on my account harri@greenmail.ch,
>> But the system says
>>
>> « You cannot enter data for a previous fertility history era. »
>>
>> How is it possible to test your mentor?
>>
>> Many thanks for your help
>>
>> Sincerely
>>
>> –
>> Harri Wettstein, Dr en psy.
>>
>> Sécheron 8 – CH-1132 Lully VD
>> phone +41 21 802 44 18 fax +41 21 802 37 35
>> skype: sympto.ch
>> harri-wettstein.de
>> http://www.symptotherm.ch, http://www.sympto.org & Symptos.ch
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> For Sheila and Audry
>>
>> This issue of whether interpreting or not is already discussed in our The Complete Symptothermal Guide on sympto.org, it is a bit disappointing to realize that you didn’t read at least the introduction, where the issue is addressed.
>>
>> I downloaded the BillingsMentor paper, great! I have to study the mentor and the paper first which looks very interesting : why didn’t you put this mentor on an app? The autor of nfpcharting, Lawson Culver, tells me that his app does not interpret because « he doesn’t want to be liable for child support payments »! So there seems to be a contradictory approach between the Billings Monitor and nfpcharting? Apps are the future of NFP admittedly. We all agree to that me seems.
>>
>> An app does not have to interpret, but if it does, it should do it correctly. There are unfortunately only 2 reliable symptothermal apps out there until now, which I regret:
>>
>> http://www.sympto.org/etude2014_en.html
>>
>>
>> As Rötzer already pointed out, the woman should have access to the complete educational material for being able to learn NFP by herself. I never said that the woman « must » have a personal trainer. Where did I say that? Most women on sympto don’t have! What we say is this: we can guarantee natural contraception (or call it effectiveness for postponing pregnancy) if the woman has been followed 6 months on sympto’s message box by a counselor. And this is quite different I hope you agree.
>>
>> Apps like Glow, ovia, etc. which are very popular because of their forums etc. interpret (« predict »!) all sorts of stupidities but in their legal reminder they do not guarantee anything. But women still use them. On these apps women do not learn how to observe correctly. The counselor is mainly there to discuss her observation quality and to improve it. For some women, the observations are easy because obvious for others not because they have complicated or disturbed cycles.
>>
>> If an app integrates vital educational elements like error messages, daily messages (of what must be observed) etc. – these elements are a big help for the user. No need to make a study to proof this evidence. But the app can generate these messages only when on the ground of a correct interpretation!
>>
>> Audrey, I will give you a feedback. The interesting point in the Billings method is the concept of basic infertile pattern which is not a simple observation but some combination of it because the monitor can do that too. I am very exited to read this paper.
>>
>>
>> Best
>> harri
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 03.12.14 09:24, ‘Audrey Smith’ audrey.smith@apex.net.au [nfpprofessionals] a écrit :
>>>
>>> I am a co-author of the paper, Smith A., Smith J. 2014
>>> billingsMentor: Adapting natural family planning to information technology and relieving the user of unnecessary tasks. Linacre Quarterly 2014 81: 219-238. DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1179/2050854914Y.0000000024
>>>
>>> The paper is available for download free of charge from the above URL. It is a peer reviewed paper and it discusses a number of issues that have been raised recently in this forum.
>>>
>>> billingsMentor (http://www.billingsmentor.org) is a fully interpretive web application for the Billings method. It has functions specifically designed to help the user describe her fertility symptoms correctly and sufficiently, and to understand a fertility chart in an intuitive format designed for BillingsMethod interpretive apps. These features are currently being evaluated, using the evidence from charts submitted by more than 400 women who have made their anonymous data available for our research. Currently we have 73,000 days of fertility records (2600 nominal cycles) and associated data available for analysis.
>>>
>>> We do not take the view that Harri Wettstein and others have taken that all women must have personal instruction. After all, it has been known for a long time that many women have successfully used the Billings Method solely by studying the book written by Dr Lyn Billings and Ann Westmore.
>>>
>>> The teacher/student mode of learning NFP has produced many excellent outcomes over the years, but its shortcomings are seldom acknowledged. These are identified and discussed in our paper.
>>>
>>> Audrey Smith
>>> __._,_.___
>>> Posted by: « Audrey Smith »
>>> Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (1)
>>> Visit Your Group
>>> Yahoo! Groups
>>> • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>> __,_._,___
>>
>>
>
>
> –
> Harri Wettstein, Dr en psy.
>
> Sécheron 8 – CH-1132 Lully VD
> phone +41 21 802 44 18 fax +41 21 802 37 35
> skype: sympto.ch
> harri-wettstein.de
> http://www.symptotherm.ch, http://www.sympto.org & Symptos.ch
>